Chloroquine and LR question

[sbreefer]

OK. I set up (2) 40 breeders to medicate all the fish from the DT. day 7 or so into it. I thought (and was right) that I'd need some LR in there to help with ammonia. so now that all the fish are out, I want to re aqua scape. Algae of course gone on LR in hospital tank. Can I put this rock back? Should I soak in bucket with carbon? is there still ich on it? will the cholorquine kill the ich on the rock in 30 days?

Also, is Prime known for making water cloudy?

 

[HumbleFish]

It is thought CP works the same as copper - only targeting the theront or “free swimming” stage. If ich is present on the rocks, it would be as tomonts/cysts which are unaffected by CP. Even worse, it is possible that LR absorbed some of the CP, dropping it below therapeutic levels in the QT, and may also leach it back out once returned to the DT. Personally, I would acid wash it before ever using in the presence of corals/inverts again.

 

[Dmorty217]

New life spectrum ich shield claims that sand and LR won't absorb CP. I used CP in a treatment tank with 250lbs of rock and after treatment was complete the rock was set out to dry, then I put several pieces back into my reef tank without any negative outcome

 

[snorvich]

It is thought CP works the same as copper - only targeting the theront or “free swimming” stage. If ich is present on the rocks, it would be as tomonts/cysts which are unaffected by CP. Even worse, it is possible that LR absorbed some of the CP, dropping it below therapeutic levels in the QT, and may also leach it back out once returned to the DT. Personally, I would acid wash it before ever using in the presence of corals/inverts again.

If CP only targets the theront stage, then 30 days exposure is not long enough to guarantee eradication since 30 days is not in all cases sufficient for theront emergence. Once a trophont leaves the fish, it becomes a protomont. During this phase, it loses its cilia, flattens its surfaces, and moves onto a substrate for about 2–18 hours. After this stage, the organism stops, sticks to the surface, and encysts, whereupon it becomes a tomont. The cyst hardens in about 8–12 hours (Colorni 1985). Before the cyst forms, the protomont may be susceptible to some treatments for a short period of time. This may be a time frame when it is vulnerable to CP treatment However, once the cyst has formed and hardened around the tomont, it has greater protection against common treatments

 

[HumbleFish]

If CP only targets the theront stage, then 30 days exposure is not long enough to guarantee eradication since 30 days is not in all cases sufficient for theront emergence. Once a trophont leaves the fish, it becomes a protomont. During this phase, it loses its cilia, flattens its surfaces, and moves onto a substrate for about 2–18 hours. After this stage, the organism stops, sticks to the surface, and encysts, whereupon it becomes a tomont. The cyst hardens in about 8–12 hours (Colorni 1985). Before the cyst forms, the protomont may be susceptible to some treatments for a short period of time. This may be a time frame when it is vulnerable to CP treatment However, once the cyst has formed and hardened around the tomont, it has greater protection against common treatments

30 days of CP is just as effective as 30 days of copper. But without all the nasty side effects, having to slowly ramp up the dosage, daily testing, etc. I think being CP is a "one & done" treatment is why it is the treatment of choice for velvet; with copper the fish would be dead before you could safely reach therapeutic levels. There is also evidence that CP treats both brook and uronema. I like tank transfer method for ich, but being it does not address velvet, brook or uronema, other methods should be explored. Indeed, the early stages of velvet sometimes resemble ich and that is when the fish is most savable. Once full blown symptoms surface, then IME it is usually too late; unless sometimes if you have quick access to formalin.

You are right about 30 days exposure not being sufficient for ich - whether it be chemical treatment such as copper or CP; or hyposalinity. You might as well just go fallow for 30 days and put the fish right back in after treatment. But who wants to treat with a chemical or hypo for 72 days?

I believe the answer is doing a "tank transfer" after treating with copper or CP. You will leave behind any tomonts in the first tank, so long as you treat in there at therapeutic levels for at least 14 days. At no time is the copper or CP lowered by running carbon, polyfilter, UV, etc. The fish is then transferred to a second tank, preferably in a non-chemical environment, for further observation. I am currently experimenting with this method, but treating the test subjects (with confirmed ich) for just 10 days before transferring. Pushing the envelope a little. It's still too early to be sure, but so far, so good.

 

[snorvich]

It is unclear why experimentation is necessary. TTM removes ich. CP is best for velvet and perhaps for brook. As I have said before, I do not believe in chemical treatment (except prazipro) prophylactic-ally only as treatment of a condition.

 

[HumbleFish]

It is unclear why experimentation is necessary. TTM removes ich. CP is best for velvet and perhaps for brook. As I have said before, I do not believe in chemical treatment (except prazipro) prophylactic-ally only as treatment of a condition.

I disagree. Knowledge of ALL available treatment options should be expanded, whenever possible. One size DOES NOT fit all. For example, I will sometimes have to travel for work on short notice. If I am treating a fish with ich using TTM, I need a backup plan that fits my schedule.

 

[alprazo]

I have not looked for a couple of years, but when I started experimenting with CP on my fish, I could not find a single scientific study that looked at CP's use for Ich. Everything was velvet. Actually there was one study - Japanese if I remember correctly that compared an herbal remedy (a tea extract) with CP in Ich. It was paid for by the herbal company and I was unable to obtain the full manuscript - only the abstract was available. Anyway, the only thing I have ever found about CP treating only the Theront stage was a personal communication and not a study. Not impressive. With velvet however there is evidence that CP is rapidly effective on the trophont stage and well as effectiveness in the dinospore phase. My point is that the mechanism of action and effectiveness of CP on ICH has not been well described and blanket statements about it are probably going to be incorrect. As for the 30 days - I believe that comes from my initial posts. It worked in my case, but in no way does it mean that 30 days is adequate to cover all cases of Ich. It could be many more. I've seen reports that 14 is enough days, so to be honest, I don't think we know.

 

[alprazo]

As for binding to LR and sand - It is the glass you need to worry about.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6824125

Am J Trop Med Hyg. 1983 Jan;32(1):19-23.
Characteristics of chloroquine binding to glass and plastic.
Geary TG, Akood MA, Jensen JB.
Abstract
Chloroquine, a 4-aminoquinoline derivative that can be radically curative in the therapy of malaria due to Plasmodium falciparum, binds to glass to an extent which can seriously decrease the availability of the drug. Preparations of chloroquine in various solutions showed decreases in concentration of up to 40% in glass containers. Passage of solutions of chloroquine over columns of glass beads or glass wool decreased chloroquine concentrations by up to 70%. Chloroquine was found to bind extensively to cellulose acetate filters, but showed little binding to polycarbonate filters or to plastics of various types, including polycarbonate, polypropylene, and polystyrene. Human serum at concentrations from 5-50% inhibited the binding of chloroquine to glass. Equilibrium dialysis experiments indicated that human serum possesses a large number of binding sites for the drug; it is also possible that factors in the serum compete for drug-binding sites on glass. It is imperative for laboratory workers, especially those in the field, to recognize the significant reductions in chloroquine concentration which occur when the drug is prepared or stored in glass containers. Such reductions can alter the interpretation of chloroquine sensitivity studies and may lead to inaccurate reports of chloroquine resistance.