CITES for sale?

[cortez marine]

On another thread we were discussing the ban on tank raised arowanas...and I segued into the "effective" coral ban on village co-operatives in Bali for poor people, sorry.
Steve

Wow,
So even if its a cultured fish.....the obstacles to conserving the species thru aquaculture will not be lifted?
Banning the culturing of "rare" fish for export seems like an indication of a bureacracy that claims to care....but not enough to support solutions to wild depletions and smuggling.
Does anyone have a take on why this is?
Its illegal to culture and ship live rock in many countries, its illegal to culture and ship corals from many places....illegal to breed and ship seahorses from many places....etc.

CITES rules create effective bans on things when fiiltered thru corrupt countries "other filter" ie. bribes for quotas.
This effectively bans aquaculture if the non bribe payer wants to export anything. Since most species are worth far less or worthless in their own countries, this denial of a legal , intelligent process amounts to a virtual ban driving aquaculture backwards.
This "one size fits all mentality" ie. aquaculture mixed for convenience with wildcaught rules" suggests inept, non ocean savy people at the helm who dont care enough to be effective...but do care enough to prosecute people.
Very bad strategy for conservation thats for sure as it inhibits creativity, science and investment for all but the rich who can afford to play the game for profit.

Village co-ops in bali who want to ship their cultured corals can not...because their budgets do not allow for a category called bribes for CITES quotas. So they watch their corals grow old and too large to ever sell.
Steve

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Steve:

As far as I know, there is no CITES ban on international "commerce" of ANY species. Are we talking about collection, commerce, or mere transport. I have imported a few CITES appendix I animals internationally, and it was no easy matter, but it was also not impossible. Again, as far as I know, there is no level on enendangerrment higher than the CITES appendix I, so what are we talking about here?

 

[cortez marine]

You miss my point.
The bribe price to play the CITES game to become "legal"is too high for most.
The purchase of coral quotas with gold watches and cash is also beyond the reach of normal people.
CITES is in many countries the luxury of the rich...not the consciencious.
Americans want to sleep well at night thinking they are good folks...yes. But this nice process requires local, illegal bribes to continue on the road to export.
I know of seahorse breeders in Mexico who gave up as the rules were too onerous, too arcane and too expensive to continue.
So, there will be no seahorses from there as the CITES process costs more then their own possible gain.
The Les Vilage coral farm in Bali is a living tragedy to this system. If they can get a grant to finance the bribes however, they are in!
Steve

 

[Hormigaquatica]

Steve-
I understand the point youre trying to make, but dont you import/export livestock yourself? Im curious- as part of the export chain, how does this all affect you and change the way you do business? How are you able to work the system in a way that doesn't cause further insult/injury to the 'little guys' out there?

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12706347#post12706347 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cortez marine
You miss my point.
The bribe price to play the CITES game to become "legal"is too high for most.
The purchase of coral quotas with gold watches and cash is also beyond the reach of normal people.
CITES is in many countries the luxury of the rich...not the consciencious.
Americans want to sleep well at night thinking they are good folks...yes. But this nice process requires local, illegal bribes to continue on the road to export.
I know of seahorse breeders in Mexico who gave up as the rules were too onerous, too arcane and too expensive to continue.
So, there will be no seahorses from there as the CITES process costs more then their own possible gain.
The Les Vilage coral farm in Bali is a living tragedy to this system. If they can get a grant to finance the bribes however, they are in!
Steve

Who enforces CITES laws? There is no CITES task force, the individual governments are required to enforce the CITES policies, or suffer the consequences from the remaining countries. A perfect example is what happened in Tonga recently. The Kingdom of Tonga didnt submit the necessary paperwork regarding their CITES permitting, and a sa result, the US embargoed their shipment. It was the USFWS that enforced the CITES issue, not any other party. So, who is benefitting from the "bribes" you are suggesting? It sounds to me like it the the local populations themselevs. Cutting off their own nose to spite their face!

I am sorry, but if I am understanding you correctly, you are making an incorrect assertion, that SOme fatcats in The Hague are getting kickbacks to permit certain people. This is not accurate, in my opinion. Am I undertsanidng you correctly?

 

[cortez marine]

"....the individual governments are required to enforce the CITES policies, or suffer the consequences from the remaining countries."

There are no consequences from selling the CITES quotas in the first place....only consequences that are involved in the paper shuffle.
The guiltier the country...he better the paperwork.
Tonga was guilty of being lazy...not like Indonesia where gifts, watches and cash for certain officials in Bogor are required to even gain entry in the game.
CITES is allocated in Indonesia according to completely accepted and illegal methodolgies Cloaked in the long tradition of ordinary, culturally tolerated corruption, you advance or remain "running in place" according to your disposition to "come across" when the time comes.

The US and the CITES mindset goes by the paperwork oblivious or uncaring of how it was produced in the first place.
I just find it ironic how we derive confidence from a system that works only if everyone is honest .
Inasmuch as Indonesia is the worlds biggest player in selling coral....generating the greatest rewards for those who manipulate and control the issuance of the paperwork.
How is it that we all naively assume it was derived properly? Outsiders cannot...and yet its a big, open secret in Indonesia.
But how can the USFWS know this?
Good question....and yet it still does not change the fact that the process starts with bribery.
Starting illegal and dishonest....it somehow gets clean enroute to the US with the right paperwork?

Paperwork....yes...Paperwork presented in the right form is all you need to export coral.
Sustainabilty however is a totally different matter and is an internal, Indonesian affair where numbers and quotas are based on a cash and carry system.

Had to believe? Why? Indonesia is also the worlds largest cyanide fish producer. If ever there was an environmental FICO score, they would land a solid 450.
Steve

Steve

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Steve, I find it hard to understand you. Are you suggesting that CITES implementation and laws should be ignored in the face of the local economy? Because a community that fishes, or collects coral, or whatever, relies on this trade, and essentially "puts all their eggs in one basket", they should be permitted to ignore CITES requirements?

You have made some very serious allegations to as how such corruption occurs. Again, my questions are, who is receiving the kickback? Who is getting the watches, cash, and goodies you proclaim? How are these recipients tied to CITES?

 

[cortez marine]

CITES;PAY TO PLAY

CITES;PAY TO PLAY

You have made serious allegations to as how such corruption occurs."

Not really. Indonesian corruption in fisheries and wildlife departments are very well known in Indonesia. They victimize their own people by withholding permits for only the rich who play ball with them.
Corrupt officals are traitors to their own people.
You find this a revelation or something hard to believe? Live there and work with shippers for awhile as I have.. Discussion of such things is so matter of fact as to be hardly worth noting.

Again, my questions are, who is receiving the kickback? Who is getting the watches, cash, and goodies you proclaim? How are these recipients tied to CITES?

There are no CITES quotas unless you pay to play.
The surveys that reveal a certain abundance, the actual consideration of a permt, the futherance of the permit in a timely fashion, the eventual rewarding of the permit....all are tweaked to fit the needs of the customer and his budget...not the need for sustainability.
The wildlife officials who control CITES animals are generally for sale, pure and simple.
Honest people find their careers on the slow track and soon learn to get with the program.

CITES is a nice idea. But the worth of any idea is in the implementation. The yanks will implement on their end...and the Indonesians will continue do what they have always done.
Sell out their own countries interest for a buck.
The decades of institutional corruption under Sukarno and then 20 years of the dictator Suharto are not so easily washed away.
Indonesians cannot freely talk this way and continue in business...so I have.
Steve

 

[chrisstie]

I feel I have stumbled upon this thread as an outsider but it has me intrigued. If you don't mind me eavesdropping so to speak as you talk this out, what is your average reefer who is concerned about such things supposed to do if this can be a corrupt system. And from the sounds of it perhaps not everywhere but in some countries that have that extreme from poor to rich without much of a middle class. The type of society that gets taken advantage of more easily than others.

I've worked at an LFS for a little bit and only have a very vague concept of CITES as in its a permit that is very expensive, and only available sometimes to relieve the collection of things that should be protected and monitored so we don't send any coral species to extinction. This may not be an accurate perception of a CITES permit, but many hobbyists probably aren't aware of this type of permitting at all.

Hope I don't stir up the pot but I try to be aware of my reef purchases. I don't want to purchase fish caught with cyanide, I try to buy aquacultured, but there are still those wild caught beauties that happen along into my tank but those I'd like to at least know weren't imported un..ethically? I'm not even sure if thats the proper word but its the best I have this morning for it.

 

[cortez marine]

it could be done scientifically, equitably and honestly....but there are holdovers from a previous Era that wont let go of their little revenue stream...
It will eventually get more honest ....its just a matter of how much more collateral damage before that happens.
Steve

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Re: CITES;PAY TO PLAY

Re: CITES;PAY TO PLAY

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12715763#post12715763 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cortez marine
You have made serious allegations to as how such corruption occurs."

Not really. Indonesian corruption in fisheries and wildlife departments are very well known in Indonesia. They victimize their own people by withholding permits for only the rich who play ball with them.
Corrupt officals are traitors to their own people.
You find this a revelation or something hard to believe? Live there and work with shippers for awhile as I have.. Discussion of such things is so matter of fact as to be hardly worth noting.

Again, my questions are, who is receiving the kickback? Who is getting the watches, cash, and goodies you proclaim? How are these recipients tied to CITES?

There are no CITES quotas unless you pay to play.
The surveys that reveal a certain abundance, the actual consideration of a permt, the futherance of the permit in a timely fashion, the eventual rewarding of the permit....all are tweaked to fit the needs of the customer and his budget...not the need for sustainability.
The wildlife officials who control CITES animals are generally for sale, pure and simple.
Honest people find their careers on the slow track and soon learn to get with the program.

CITES is a nice idea. But the worth of any idea is in the implementation. The yanks will implement on their end...and the Indonesians will continue do what they have always done.
Sell out their own countries interest for a buck.
The decades of institutional corruption under Sukarno and then 20 years of the dictator Suharto are not so easily washed away.
Indonesians cannot freely talk this way and continue in business...so I have.
Steve

Steve the corruption you seem to know so first hand is apparently the sisue of the indivudal governmnet, not CITES. I must confess, I disagree wholeheartedly with you assesment,. I have seen many CITES permits passed out, and many withheld, and I have never seen money, bribes, or similar play a factor.

I am not surprised by corruption. It this is so l;egitimate, I would like to know more about the details and facts, rather than the bland and cryptic comments you make. Its very conspiracy theory-ish.

 

[cortez marine]

Suhartos legacy

Suhartos legacy

Jpanda writes;

"Steve the corruption you seem to know so first hand is apparently the sisue of the indivudal governmnet, not CITES. I must confess, I disagree wholeheartedly with you assesment,. I have seen many CITES permits passed out, and many withheld, and I have never seen money, bribes, or similar play a factor."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it is first hand and this kind of dialogue may put people at risk futher.

I know good and well how deep the corrupsi is there and so do you apparently.
Is your connection to this issue business or cultural? If cultural, let me suggest that corruption reform is pro-Indonesian, not anti Indonesian.

I have worked with people there who were deep into the system who wished the word to get out even though they could not ever be quoted.
And I have worked with village associations who wish they had money for the bribes to get the ball rolling with their coral farm now overgrowing and going to waste....along with all their investment.
The exporters associations in Indo are the trades biggest cyanide cartels with a good ol boy system wired to their benefit. The CITES coral quotas for sale is an old, long tradItion known by hundreds of people and if its getting cleaner, that would be the REAL news...
Indonesia is fortunate to have escaped the kind of exposes that the Philippines endured...and if those exposes were ever written the world would be absolutely shocked

Indonesia has suffered from one of the regions most corrupt and dictatorial regimes for several decades and needs at least another decade or so to clean out.

You want specific names?
You mean like the army General who was interviewed in the
darker years of repression about critics of the lack of Democracy in Guatemala.
He yelled...'Who says theirs no democracy in Guatemala?? ...give me their names!"

.
The CITES system is selectively de-frauded by willful, local manipulation of data and decisions influenced by "rewards" and which are then purported to be the proper process.
Fooling CITES should concern CITES and the USFWS as the beginning of the process obviously affects the integrity of the end result.
Steve