Cleaner Shrimp

[Andrew17030]

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I have several thousand cleaner shrimp larvae about with the oldest at least 3 weeks post hatch. It's difficult to tell for certain because I have three females all producing fry in 24" cube that is hooked up to a larger system. Not planned at all, I just noticed them surviving in a certain tank and started watching to see what I could learn. I have them in all the tanks but one of the tanks seems to have the right environment, so far. There are three females and one male, they all get along well, I see them walking around where there are young and they seem like it's no big deal. All of the females are hatching at different times within 7-8 days. I should have some more young in the next day or two. I hypothesize that the new young will serve as appropriate nourishment to the older larvae, etc. Especially, with several producing females in the same tank. I can definitely see that some are larger than others. They seem to prefer the different types of plant foods that have settled at the bottom over pellets or flake. I can also see them swimming or swarming around the food/detritus that has settled, I assume that they are eating something and this would make the most sense. I cannot actually see them eating anything of course. I have read that other species of shrimp have trouble establishing a functioning digestive system when fed immediately on easily produced live foods and plant based food may help encourage a functioning digestive system. These shrimp eat primarily detritus in the wild and of course parasitic zooplankton. I presume that because of the anatomy of this shrimp that hunting is not something that it is built for, so I don't know why people have been convinced that the young must be separated. I have noticed that these larvae congregate in specific spots in the sediment, where detritus settles. I have lots of different edible macros in the tank and I feed them a supplemental diet. For the most part, I have been feeding primarily macroalgae foods because all of my fish are herbivores. The parents get spectrum pellets too, which they love. Probably about 70/30, planty:meaty. I would say that this is hardly a success at this point but it does give a new approach to a species that has been difficult to produce in very sterile larvae rearing tanks.

 

[Arc Drafter]

That is cool thanks for sharing!

 

[billsreef]

Those shrimp are functional hermaphrodites, they each take turns being male and then female...so they all get to have eggs

As for larval shrimp being cannibalistic, that is well established for all crustacean larvae, including the Lysmata sp.

BTW, do you have any pictures of the zoea?

 

[EricShane]

Cool, cant wait to see how this turns out.

 

[grizbear]

Very interesting! Pics would be great

 

[Andrew17030]

I have tried to get pictures where they are visible, still having difficulty. I think a video would be much cooler. I'll see what I can do. I think I had an hatching last night, they are all swimming around the shedding of the mother is presume.

 

[billsreef]

Video is good, as swimming patterns are just as much of interest

 

[Andrew17030]

From what I have read and seen they can change from male to female or visa versa only after a molting. It's not as spontaneous as today male and tomorrow female etc. They also hatch their eggs around molting time, eggs don't start out green. I have observed them pair off in two M/F pairs and then the third became female after it's molting after the two had filled the tank with fry. I dunno why, but that's what happened. The other tank that I have these shrimp in has more competition for food and more space, they have remained in two M/F pairs. Still produce fry, but the fry do not survive for long and get either skimmed, beat up from the plumbing, or eaten by my Banggai juvies in another refugium/sump. My temp has not been as constant as one might think is necessary, 74-81 F, SG. 0.0126, pH 8.0-8.2, NO3 and PO4 have not been tested for in almost a month (If I was going to guess NO3 unmeasurable and PO4<0.03, I feed a lot.)

I have some descent footage. I can only get viable video of the older shrimp larvae that have ventured from the epicenter of hatching inside a cave. I can only get clear shots of those within about 6" from the tank wall too. Should I direct link the video from Photobucket or Link to YouTube? I don't wanna get busted for linking to another site. I would would have to do something really boring on winter break, like watch TV if I got kicked off RC.

I think I observed a few settling or walking on some food yesterday, these would be roughly 3-4 weeks old. They were in open light, the young ones will stay out of open or direct light. I do not have many if any harpacticoids or amphipods and frankly they look way different (actually saw one Gammarid in the display about a week ago), and only a few very small calanoids probably pseudodiaptomus sp. that feed on the diatoms again much different in size and swimming behavior.

 

[Andrew17030]

I think this one will work. Still hard to see for most of the video, 00:25 will be visible.

[URL=http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad225/Andrew_57/IMG_1237_zps6df55b10.mp4][/URL]

 

[billsreef]

Andrew, I hate to possibly burst your bubble, but based on the swimming motion I think you have mysis shrimp....which do somewhat commonly end up growing in our reef tanks and swimming and feeding in the manner you describe. Lysmata zoea typically swim in rather in a rather jerky motion. Here's a really good thread on Louis A M's work on them, with lots of great detailed pictures

 

[Andrew17030]

Thats what they are doing, it's hard to see though. I am almost certain they are not mysis but anyone can be wrong. I have read a few pages on these shrimp, including most of the info on MOFB, with very little being helpful. Everybody asks the same people questions, does the same things and gets the same results. They put them in a small empty tank and feed them rotifers and the die like crazy. Thanks for your help.

 

[Andrew17030]

So, if these little things swarming around are in fact cleaner shrimp larvae here is an update: I have a descent pile of Ulva and Red/Brown Ogo or Gracilaria, not sure what it is exactly. There are some that will walk a little and swim/jump to the next piece of macro. Then others are settled/walking completely. I have also noticed that the older partially settled and completely settled larvae don't mind being out in full light. While the planktonic larvae are deep in a cave or out of the cave in a shaded area. It kind of seems like the older they get the farther they venture out of the cave and lose their sensitivity to light.
Anyway, these larvae/? are definitely settling. I have larvae that are all probably one or at most two days apart in age. Also, what I think I am seeing are partial hatches. What I mean by this is that it seems like the eggs are hatched over a period of two days. I can tell when a hatching is close whenever I can see the individual eggs on the female as opposed to just a green mass. Usually, the other half or so are gone the next morning after the first hatch and then the following morning they are all gone and she as molted. The molts and hatches seem to happen in the dark cave/communal hatching area that always has a swarm of larvae. I would guess the area to be about 4-5 square inches and the swarm is thick. If I was going to guess how many are there I would say anywhere from 500-1000 depending on when the last hatch was. I have a few predators in there that probably pick off a few here and there, particularly one crab that has feathers instead of claws that just constantly swipes through the water and eats what it catches. I thought to catch it a couple of times but I am hesitant to change anything because something is working. I have never witnessed a hatching but I haven't tried to either. I don't know the age of the oldest or if any of those are still living but the first time I noticed larvae living and swimming about was about a month ago. I purchased the shrimp about two months prior to this observation from Pecto. I meant to get a set of three for a discount but got three set of three, oops.

I am still feeding the heck out of the that particular tank and have very little hair algae, diatom, or cynobacteria growing in it. My other fuge like to grow all of the cyno, I have different lights on that one though. My tank is still really new, about 6 months with water. I think all of those little things are helping keep the rest of my tank water very clear. Well I should say, my water clarity is getting much better even though I don't do water changes and I feed tons of different flake, Nori, Selcon, and different meaty foods. I really don't have much of a copepod or amphipod population either. I think any that would have been on the live rock died because I FW dipped to get rid of something that was snapping all the time and driving me crazy.

I'm just trying to be as thorough as possible so that others can take what the want and leave the rest. I got some more video and I will put it up soon.

Also, I thought through the mysis shimp explanation. I have never seen any mysis and for mysis to produce that many larvae I would have to have 300-600 females with a substantial population of males, in a 70 tank. I think I would have seen one or two by now. And the young would be eaten very fast, not increasing in numbers by the day.

 

[sucker_fish]

following this thread...I did have a couple cleaner shrimp in a 29 biocube that were constantly full of eggs and as soon as the babies were hatched/released they quickly disappeared, either from the fish, getting sucked into the back of the biocube or whatever. One time I did have about 6 tiny shrimp that made it for about 3 weeks. they hid out inside the little biocube hydrometer that was in the tank permanently. they stayed there for about 3 weeks or so and then they disappeared, im assuming fish food. Been trying to find out ever since how to get them to survive but seems like no one has any luck with them...

 

[Andrew17030]

I either lost a bunch right after a very small water change or had a mass settlement. I have since found out that others have lost them similarly with this and closely related species. I have a bunch newly hatched. I have seen a lot of different behaviors and I am not sure what to attribute them to. I have swarms now in open light as well as in caves. Probably due to something nutritional. The group in the light appear to be eating cynobacteria or something around it. I have seen one that has grown to about a half an inch. Im almost done building a system specifically for breeding these shrimp. Not an upweller or anything similar to what I have read about. The last small shrimp has started to carry eggs now.

 

[Travis590]

This is really cool, I actually never knew that cleaner shrimp would take turns being the male and then the female lol.

 

[LLUSA]

If anyone wants to read a paper on simultaneous hermaphroDitism, there is a good paper by Andrew Rhyne that you can google.

I can't get the video to load on my IPad, but I doubt you have lysmata debelius (sp?) breeding. The first stages of their life are purely planktonic. They are voracious eaters requiring planktonic food.