Clown ID

[GSMguy]

A. Polymnus Black and white percula {Nope}
A. Ocellaris Onyx Clown {nope)
A. Latezonatus Wide banded clown
A. Mccullochi Mcculloch's clownfish


No offense Chupa but you typed this out this is what we are talking about not the distrobution houses which i think you mean wholesalers.

i just dont see how we can get a proper id without a picture we cant even agree what to call the fish that it might be

 

[Chupacabras]

Wholesalers, distribution houses, whatever... you know exactly what I meant didn't you?

Black saddlebacks are commonly called black perculas in many places, that is a fact and backed up in Clownfishes by Wilkerson (my local store carries them by that name as well).

Black and white ocellaris, does that make you happier? I gave the scientific name, I don't understand what the big gripe is. I listed a couple common names of fish so maybe the OP could find himself a picture to compare to what he saw at a store.

 

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9465093#post9465093 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Chupacabras
Wholesalers, distribution houses, whatever... you know exactly what I meant didn't you?

Black saddlebacks are commonly called black perculas in many places, that is a fact and backed up in Clownfishes by Wilkerson (my local store carries them by that name as well).

Black and white ocellaris, does that make you happier? I gave the scientific name, I don't understand what the big gripe is. I listed a couple common names of fish so maybe the OP could find himself a picture to compare to what he saw at a store.

no gripe i know exactly what you meant but others might not.
Doesnt it feel better to call them a saddleback then a black and white perc when you know they are not a perc. and that there are some very offended black and white ocellaris out there
its also more helpfull but if your LFS does it...

 

[jdreefer]

lol, I missed the whole Onyx=Occelaris from the post that was so offensive to everyone.

I don't disagree with you all on your issues with using the common name of Black Percula to describe Black Saddlebacks. The problem is that half of the rest of the fish world (importers, wholesalers, fish stores, uninformed hobbiests, etc) still use the common name black percula. The original poster was asking what the clowns might be, and would need to know that a LOT of people commonly call A. Polymnus black perculas (however wrong we all agree that is).

Let's use a freshwater fish analysis here...there are several fish called sharks in the freshwater fish world (balas, rainbows, black, etc.) Now we all know they aren't sharks and that the real sharks of the world are probably offended by it, but they are still called sharks. In fact, I wouldn't even begin to know what the scientific name of any of the freshwater fish even is. The only difference here is that there is another readily available common name, Black Saddlebacks, that could be used for A. Polymnus if people so choose.

 

[jdreefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9464246#post9464246 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cschweitzer
Hey AquaReefer, now all you have to do is find me one of the bottom two listed through your pictures and I'll be quite content. Until then, it is just playing the waiting game...

You are pickier than I am. I wouldn't mind having the adult Saddleback pictured there either. Although maybe my problem is just that all you ever see in the stores are juvies and I have jsut never personally seen an adult. Maybe they all turn out to look like that when they grow up? If so, maybe I need to think about getting a pair of black saddlebacks too.

 

[GSMguy]

my buddy has a saddleback in his 240 with multiple tangs and it rules the tank
they get huge 6 to 7 inches they are not like a perc in any way. :lol:

 

[AquaReeferMan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9464246#post9464246 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cschweitzer
Hey AquaReefer, now all you have to do is find me one of the bottom two listed through your pictures and I'll be quite content. Until then, it is just playing the waiting game...

cschweitzer I sent you a PM with a link to buy the latezonatus clowns. If they didnt have such a high price tag I would have a pair. As for the bottom clowns Ive never seen them for sale. If this is what you meant by your comment.

 

[cschweitzer]

That price tag was tiny in comparison to what they go for. Unfortunately that was a false alarm...they do not have them and rarely get them. Thank you much for the info, though.

By the way, what I said earlier stands except for one case. I gave you the case of calling A. polymnus a latz and sending me out polyms. Well, this would still tick me off beyond belief, but if they did it the other way around(calling a latz pair by the name polymnus and then sending me out latz) I would have absolutely no problem with that. In fact, if any store did that, I'd probably just end up sending them an extra hundred bucks!!

 

[Slakker]

Which is all fine and dandy as long as you know what you just got....but for the hobbyist who wouldn't necessarily notice a difference or know better, that could be disaster.

Say a newbie aquarist receives a pair of A. Latezonatus when they thought they were getting A. Polymnus (or they thought they were getting the mythical "Black Percula"). This newbie happens to take real good care of their tank, everything is going good, his little chitlins (the fish...not actually his kids...) start breeding. Jimmy the Aquarist here now believes he's got a pair of breeding "Black Perculas", he tries his hand at raising the fry, has a few work out here and there, and sells them to his LFS. Now his LFS has a fairly regular supply of A. Latezonatus, but they think it's "Black Perculas."

Or maybe a new aquarist buys a single A. Polymnus as his first fish, and since it was labelled as "Black Percula" the poor guy tries to pair it up with a legitimate A. Percula. I'm sure we can all agree that A. Polymnus is more...assertive...than A. Percula, so this guys ends up with dead fish after dead fish, and can't understand why his "Black Percula" keeps killing off his "True Percula" clowns. They're the same species, after all, right?!

Also, in response to the Freshwater "sharks" comment...That's really, really different. "Shark" is not the scientific name of any specific species of shark, merely the common name for a whole family of fish. I think the odds of someone getting a Rainbow Shark confused for an actual shark are pretty slim (i'll admit when I was younger I told everyone we had a shark in our aquarium, but I also told everyone we drove a Lamborghini because I couldn't remember that it was a Pontiac...). In this case, the odds of someone getting confused by the "Black Percula" title is really, really high, and this confusion can cause some potentially serious problems. That's why I feel it's so important to get this right and to make the correction when we see it wrong.

 

[jdreefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9472933#post9472933 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Slakker
Which is all fine and dandy as long as you know what you just got....but for the hobbyist who wouldn't necessarily notice a difference or know better, that could be disaster.

Say a newbie aquarist receives a pair of A. Latezonatus when they thought they were getting A. Polymnus (or they thought they were getting the mythical "Black Percula"). This newbie happens to take real good care of their tank, everything is going good, his little chitlins (the fish...not actually his kids...) start breeding. Jimmy the Aquarist here now believes he's got a pair of breeding "Black Perculas", he tries his hand at raising the fry, has a few work out here and there, and sells them to his LFS. Now his LFS has a fairly regular supply of A. Latezonatus, but they think it's "Black Perculas."

Or maybe a new aquarist buys a single A. Polymnus as his first fish, and since it was labelled as "Black Percula" the poor guy tries to pair it up with a legitimate A. Percula. I'm sure we can all agree that A. Polymnus is more...assertive...than A. Percula, so this guys ends up with dead fish after dead fish, and can't understand why his "Black Percula" keeps killing off his "True Percula" clowns. They're the same species, after all, right?!

Also, in response to the Freshwater "sharks" comment...That's really, really different. "Shark" is not the scientific name of any specific species of shark, merely the common name for a whole family of fish. I think the odds of someone getting a Rainbow Shark confused for an actual shark are pretty slim (i'll admit when I was younger I told everyone we had a shark in our aquarium, but I also told everyone we drove a Lamborghini because I couldn't remember that it was a Pontiac...). In this case, the odds of someone getting confused by the "Black Percula" title is really, really high, and this confusion can cause some potentially serious problems. That's why I feel it's so important to get this right and to make the correction when we see it wrong.

Perfect. Since you apparently feel so passionate about this I will be anxiously awaiting your article, which I am sure will be published, on the plight of misidentified "black perculas" in the hobby as well as a petition that should go to all importers, wholesalers, LFS, and hobbiests to stop misidentifying Black Saddlebacks.

Anyone informed in the hobby would know that a rainbow shark is not a shark. Just like anyone informed in the hobby would know that "Black Percula" is not a black percula because there is no such thing as one.

An individual was criticized on here for stating that A Polymnus is commonly referred to as "Black Percula" in the hobby. Whether the common name is misleading, inaccurate, whatever...it is, in fact, a very common name for black saddlebacks in the hobby.

 

[Ovuel]

I was going to try to pull a couple of different quotes out and respond to them all, but instead of going through all of the hassle I will just say my piece. Please keep in mind this is the "newbie" perspective on this whole issue which it seems some of you have overlooked.

I have had FW tanks for 6 years. In that span of 6 years I have never, not one time, ever called any fish by it's scientific name. Does this make me an uninformed hobbiest? I would argue not.

I'm very new to the SW thing, however I am even more green to the Anemone Fish/Clownfish thing. I would agree that there is a lot of misinformation out there about Black Clownfish. I would also admit that I don't even fully understand which is which and what is related to what and how.

I do know that the post made by AquaReeferMan sure cleared up most of the questions I had. The unfortunate thing is this topic is now on the second page of people arguing over semantics. To be honest, nobody cares what they are called as long as it looks how you want it to look when it grows up. Call it a "Swimming Dung Beetle" for all I care, I just want to know what it looks like when it matures.

If you really have time to get T-ed off about what somebody calls something, maybe you should take a step back from the hobby and realign your priorities. I know that I have a 1 year old son, and I deal with kids about his age all day long when they come into the store. Every clownfish that they see is Nemo. They don't care if it's an A. O. or an A. P. they just know it's Nemo. Heck I have even heard the A. Clarkii called Yellow Nemos.

The bottom line is this post has gone from being informative for the OP to a bunch of people arguing over a bunch of things that aren't really that important. Please just let it go and move on.

 

[raoul]

To be honest, nobody cares what they are called as long as it looks how you want it to look when it grows up. Call it a "Swimming Dung Beetle" for all I care, I just want to know what it looks like when it matures.

I think this thread shows that some people obviously do care what they're called.

I don't think using scientific names in FW is all that necessary (we've had FW set up almost continuously for nine years now). I figure if I get a guppy, regardless of what type of guppy, I have a pretty good idea of what to expect - they seem to be about the same. I know if I get an oscar, regardless of type, they're about the same and I can expect them to eat my guppies.

So far, SW doesn't seem to be as big a deal either, UNTIL you get to the clowns and anemones. Although some clowns look similar, their personalities, tank requirements, tank mates, anemone choice, and even level of difficulty can vary greatly. With common names overlapping using scientific names is a lot easier for me, especially if I'm ordering from an on-line vendor or discussing needs or problems on-line knowing exactly what someone is referring to makes things easier.

Just to stir the pot some more, because we all know it needs it just because the LFS (wholesalers etc.) does it doesn't make it a good practice, it just makes it a common one.

To the OP - sorry to take up more of your thread, but obviously this is a touchy subject - do you have an ID on the mystery black clown yet?

 

[cschweitzer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9475340#post9475340 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by raoul

So far, SW doesn't seem to be as big a deal either, UNTIL you get to the clowns and anemones. Although some clowns look similar, their personalities, tank requirements, tank mates, anemone choice, and even level of difficulty can vary greatly. With common names overlapping using scientific names is a lot easier for me, especially if I'm ordering from an on-line vendor or discussing needs or problems on-line knowing exactly what someone is referring to makes things easier.

This is the most important part. If you get a black saddleback, A. polymnus, and someone calls it a black perc, no harm no foul. Then let's just say you ask the LFS worker what needs to provide this. It is labeled percula, so they find percula, look it up and tell you the requirements. Too bad you don't know any better and you listen to them. Oh, they only get up to 4-5 inches...wrong; polymnus can reach upwards of 8" or so at full size. Oh, they are friendly tankmates that won't cause trouble...wrong; polymnus can be very agressive and especially in a tank environment of community fish. Oh, they are native to this area and can have these types of anems...wrong; they are very specific about their anems in comparison to other fish, like the percula.

When you are talking about within species, like different color morphs, that is one thing. When you are talking about two separate species, needs, care, environment, temps, hosts, etc. it is like calling an acro a leather. It just plain isn't that and requires completely different things.



On this note, I have some Japan acans for $100 per polyp. They look and feel a lot like xenia and I think the species may actually be xenia, but Japan acans is the common name I'm going with. Hey, it's just a different species, why wouldn't the common name Japan acan work for xenia? Oh, that's right, it's xenia, not acanthastrea...that's why that common name doesn't work for it.

If a dealer called A. echinata by the name acan lord and you paid $100 per polyp, would you expect to get a, echinata or a lord?

 

[cschweitzer]

I don't even think it is a debate over common name use and scientific name use, though, it is the incorrect use of a scientific taxonomic classification that is being utilized as a common name. If there were no percula species and people called a few species the percula clownfish(like the complexes in Wilkerson's book), that would be one thing. But blatantly calling three other types of fish percula that just are not gets confusing.

Call them nemos for all I care, just don't soil my percula's fine breeding lines with 800 other types or color morphs of fish...it just doesn't make sense using a scientific taxonomy as part of another fish's common name.

 

[fishman72]

Wow I did not know thatthis would bring much debate, but the pictures that was posted the Black A. Ocellaris adult was one at the store. Thanks for everyone input in helping me trying to find out the name.

 

[raoul]

I've seen A. occellaris listed at live aquaria, and I've seen them in the store too. I almost had two, but one died before I was able to bring them home, and I'd rather add 2 clowns at the same time, so I left it there. I really like the look of the occell.'s/percs (as well as their size) and hope to see a few more come through the store soon, if not, I will probably be ordering some from live aquaria myself If you'd rather see the fish before you buy it though, sometimes the LFS can put in a request/special order.

We live in KC MO - north of the river, how far is Troy MO? There's a couple of local reef groups (local as in MO, KS, NE) around, if you're interested, let me know. There's also some decent LFS's around too if you need the info, let me know

Good luck!

 

[Ovuel]

Raoul,

You unfairly pulled a quote directly out of my thread, and when taken out of context completely misinterprets what I said. The main purpose of what I posted was to say, "To be honest, nobody cares what they are called as long as it looks how you want it to look when it grows up.". This quote also came directly out of what I posted, and can be used to stand alone on what I was trying to convey. Ultimately I felt everybody was overlooking the question the OP asked, however I am glad you choose to address that with the OP and actually got a positive response.

 

[raoul]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9478014#post9478014 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ovuel
Raoul,

You unfairly pulled a quote directly out of my thread, and when taken out of context completely misinterprets what I said. The main purpose of what I posted was to say, "To be honest, nobody cares what they are called as long as it looks how you want it to look when it grows up.". This quote also came directly out of what I posted, and can be used to stand alone on what I was trying to convey. Ultimately I felt everybody was overlooking the question the OP asked, however I am glad you choose to address that with the OP and actually got a positive response.

I didn't see this as out of context, I assumed that everyone who had gotten to my post had read yours and understood what you were trying to say. I apologize if my choice of where to end the quote was upsetting to you, so to be safe, I quoted the whole post this time. I can understand how someone would take that quote the wrong way if they hadn't read your entire post (or this entire thread) but again, I didn't think that was the case.

I knew you meant no disrespect to the clowns we all love, and I don't think anybody else took it that way either.

I'm glad too the OP was able to get an answer to his question, that's what the boards are for, but since there's a lot of passionate people out there these threads can go in ways we never imagined and sometimes the answers get lost.

I know you're new to this part of reef keeping too and I'm glad to "see" a new face