Clown Mating????

[Misos Anthropos]

Hi All,

As soon as I started talking about setting up a SW reef tank my wife was all for it. Which is great, dont get me wrong, but she has clownfish-on-the-brain. Now I like clownfish just fine, but my interests lie more to the corals than the fish stocking so I said she could decide the fish in the tank and I'd stock the corals.

So in short order she had a list, yes, you guessed it, almost all clowns. Maroon clowns, tomato clowns, this clown, that clown, everywhere a clown clown.

Most of my time has been spent learning the mechanics of the tank...plumbing, flow etc. Then I was gonna move on to chemistry, finally learning what would peacefully co-exist in my tank. But, finally, I had reached info-overload on those forums and decided to come here as a bit of R&R.

Which is when I discovered that her long list 'O clowns would not be a reality and had to inform her that it's a bad Idea to have that many clowns in a 4ft 90g tank. (See? Some of us noobs really DO listen to the advice you folks with more experience try to push thru our thick skulls:lolspin

So her next question became "can I mate two different breeds of clowns? And if so, which ones?

Which brought me to the question...is this even a good idea? Or would we just end up with a lot of dead fish before we were successful?

I really want to do this right the first time without any (or as close to as I can humanly get) loss of life for my critters.

Personally, I'm leaning towards picking a breed and sticking to it, but I need ammunition to argue my point.

 

[Crazed]

Well, if you go for Ocellaris, for example, you could get one of the all black or misbar varieties and they could theoretically mate with other varieties of Ocellaris clownfish, as they're the same species. The black and white Ocellaris and the orange Ocellaris produce a very nice clown some people call the Mocha Maine Ocellaris. So, if your wife wants different clownfish, you could just mix differently colored/barred varieties of Ocellaris together and they'll get along fine because they are all just different varieties of the same species.

Two different species of clownfish (ie Percula and Ocellaris) can and have been mated, but they won't produce viable offspring (that is, ones that can reproduce themselves), and I would imagine this is very rare in a common setup. I probably wouldn't keep them together. Clownfish are fairly aggressive fish if they're not paired. You might be able to get away with more in a 4ft 90 gallon, though, but you almost certainly won't get a Maroon/Percula hybrid, or any other.

Props for doing your research! :thumbsup: It really pays off in this hobby. Good luck to you.

 

[Misos Anthropos]

Well, if you go for Ocellaris, for example, you could get one of the all black or misbar varieties and they could theoretically mate with other varieties of Ocellaris clownfish, as they're the same species. The black and white Ocellaris and the orange Ocellaris produce a very nice clown some people call the Mocha Maine Ocellaris. So, if your wife wants different clownfish, you could just mix differently colored/barred varieties of Ocellaris together and they'll get along fine because they are all just different varieties of the same species.

Two different species of clownfish (ie Percula and Ocellaris) won't produce viable offspring, though, and I probably wouldn't keep them together. Clownfish are fairly aggressive fish if they're not paired. You might be able to get away with more in a 4ft 90 gallon, though, but you won't get a Maroon/Percula hybrid.


Props for doing your research! :thumbsup: It really pays off in this hobby. Good luck to you.

Ah... I didnt realize that a lot of these were actually different species of fish. That makes a lot of my question rather moot right there.

As far as more pairs in a 90... I've read that its possible if you aquascape your tank to cut off any easy view the pairs have of each other.

I'm gonna try to steer this more in that direction, after we have a bit more experience with the clownfish, of course.

 

[zeeter]

Interestingly, there have been cases where maroons and perculas have mated. I'm not saying that it's common, but it has happened. My guess is that the percula needs to be the female because I doubt a female maroon would stand the audacity of a male percula wooing her. This is all the more interesting in that perculas and maroons are not even of the same genus.

Also, while some of the clowns from a hybrid hatch will be sterile, most of them are fertile. In fact, two of the 26 (28?) species of clownfish are thought to be hybrids. The only doubt that some people hold onto about them not being hybrids is that they reproduce. Less and less people are believing that anymore. Clownfish are poor swimmers and only a tiny fraction of their hatches survive. Therefore they have Darwined themselves to be able to do some things that other animals cant as far as mating goes. Yeah, I just coined that word "Darwined". If you use it you owe me fifty cents every time.

 

[Mike31154]

Mating is just the start. Raising the fry is a bit more work intensive than the average fresh water finned critter. You'll need separate system, phytoplankton, rotifers, time, patience. My Maroon pair has been spawning for some time & I still haven't got around to setting up a grow out system. When the eggs hatch, the larvae become food for other inhabitants of my tank, same as the offspring produced by my cleaner shrimp. Your wife sounds pretty keen though, so with a little patience you should have something going fairly quickly.

 

[Misos Anthropos]

Interestingly, there have been cases where maroons and perculas have mated. I'm not saying that it's common, but it has happened. My guess is that the percula needs to be the female because I doubt a female maroon would stand the audacity of a male percula wooing her. This is all the more interesting in that perculas and maroons are not even of the same genus.

Also, while some of the clowns from a hybrid hatch will be sterile, most of them are fertile. In fact, two of the 26 (28?) species of clownfish are thought to be hybrids. The only doubt that some people hold onto about them not being hybrids is that they reproduce. Less and less people are believing that anymore. Clownfish are poor swimmers and only a tiny fraction of their hatches survive. Therefore they have Darwined themselves to be able to do some things that other animals cant as far as mating goes. Yeah, I just coined that word "Darwined". If you use it you owe me fifty cents every time.

I think I'll keep that little tidbit to myself. I dont wanna try it. Sounds like something best left to folks with more knowledge and experience. Not for beginners who havent yet set up their first tank!!

Better get a copyright on that new word!!

 

[Misos Anthropos]

Mating is just the start. Raising the fry is a bit more work intensive than the average fresh water finned critter. You'll need separate system, phytoplankton, rotifers, time, patience. My Maroon pair has been spawning for some time & I still haven't got around to setting up a grow out system. When the eggs hatch, the larvae become food for other inhabitants of my tank, same as the offspring produced by my cleaner shrimp. Your wife sounds pretty keen though, so with a little patience you should have something going fairly quickly.

I'm not sure we'll actually raise them. I'm thinking she just wants to make sure that they're actually a pair. If we do raise them I have no idea what we'd do with them. There seems to be a general lack of reefers in my area and the only lfs we have is the local Petco, and I'm surprised they manage to get water in their tanks without a picture book of directions.

 

[bues0022]

I can see your wife is awfully ambitious, and the best way to keep ambition is through success, right? Immediate and/or repeated failures (especially when hopes are so high), can lead to a big crash - and there goes your hobby. Remind her that anything good in this hobby takes time.

While there have been cases where people can keep two pairs in a 90 gallon - those are by far the exception. Most likely, IF you had two pairs that could stand each other (i.e. something like ocellaris and percula, or maybe pink skunk), once one pair starts reaching sexual maturity and laying eggs the other pair are dead fish swimming. The likelihood of longterm (multi-year) success is very very slim.

While some find the mocha clowns (mix of black and orange ocellaris) appealing, more find the all B&W or just orange ocellaris appealing (if your goal is to eventually sell the fish). Otherwise, the pairing can look quite nice.

An exception to the above is Sanjay's Black Photon's. They are an Onyx percula X black ocellaris. They are very good looking clowns, and yes, the hybrids are fertile. Most are with clownfish as far as I know.

 

[zeeter]

Mating is just the start. Raising the fry is a bit more work intensive than the average fresh water finned critter. You'll need separate system, phytoplankton, rotifers, time, patience. My Maroon pair has been spawning for some time & I still haven't got around to setting up a grow out system. When the eggs hatch, the larvae become food for other inhabitants of my tank, same as the offspring produced by my cleaner shrimp. Your wife sounds pretty keen though, so with a little patience you should have something going fairly quickly.

Most breeders I know are bypassing the whole phyto growing thing and just buying enriched rotifer food. The phyto needs to be enriched anyway so why not pay a few dollars more and get the whole thing? Phyto cultures crash way easily for some reason. I had one going and then it just suddenly stopped growing for no apparent reason.

 

[NirvanaFan]

Most breeders I know are bypassing the whole phyto growing thing and just buying enriched rotifer food. The phyto needs to be enriched anyway so why not pay a few dollars more and get the whole thing? Phyto cultures crash way easily for some reason. I had one going and then it just suddenly stopped growing for no apparent reason.

I'm going off topic, but I've never had a problem growing nannochloropsis. If you feed the rotifers phyto, you don't have to enrich the phyto.

I'd stick to one pair of clowns. You can try to mix species, but it will be tough. It will be easier to just get the same species. Like was mentioned earlier though, there are plenty of options for designer clowns (picasso, Wyoming White, snowflake, snowcasso, etc). If I were you, I would stick with one species and mix them up if that is what your wife wants.

 

[AquaReeferMan]

Get 2 of the same clowns and let them grow into a pair. Nothing looks more unnatural than random clowns thrown into the same tank.

 

[zeeter]

I'm going off topic, but I've never had a problem growing nannochloropsis. If you feed the rotifers phyto, you don't have to enrich the phyto.

Nanno doesn't naturally have the DHA fatty acid in it which enriches the rotifers. For breeding purposes, while the clown fry may eat them they will have difficulty making it through metamorphosis without the strength from the DHA enriched rotifers.

 

[Da Saltwater DJ]

Does anybody have pic's of two different species baby clowns ?

 

[NirvanaFan]

Nanno doesn't naturally have the DHA fatty acid in it which enriches the rotifers. For breeding purposes, while the clown fry may eat them they will have difficulty making it through metamorphosis without the strength from the DHA enriched rotifers.

I'm going to have to disagree with you. Many breeders use just nannochloropsis and have good results. You can always soak rotifers in a supplement also.

 

[NirvanaFan]

dbl post

 

[duncaholic]

Preface---- Everything stated below is a combination of my opinions and experiences. After pre-viewing my post, it seems to come of sort of preachy. Not my intention. Just trying to be comprehensive in my response.


Clownfish are kinda funny IMO. You can read thousands of different opinions on them, but without a LOT of experience in this hobby, there are some general guidelines I would suggest.

1. Stick with a single species. Although many people have had success mixing species, many more have had deadly failures. Just so you know I breed clowns and have 1000+ in my systems right now, so I have a decent amount of experience pairing and raising them. Many of the success stories I have seen involving inter-species mixing involve sub-adult clowns. When clowns reach sexual maturity, everything changes. This isn't just with clowns, there are countless examples of other species(both fresh and saltwater) that have dramatic personality shifts at this stage. Sexually mature clowns generally become hyper aggresive and will tend to stay that way.

2. Stick to one pair. Once again the sub-adults that you see swimming around in large groups in the LFS are not representative of what their behavior will ultimatley become. IMO a single pair of clowns are quite entertaining on their own, and introducing multiple pairs will IME diminish their naturally playfull nature, and cause them to spend a lot of their time stressed and often hiding. Also the likelyhood of all out war will always loom. They could be cool with it for long periods of time, especially if each pair can host a nem or something on opposite ends of the tank, but then one day you might come home to find armagedon.

3. Consider the life span of clowns. Clowns live a very long time in a well maintained system. 8, 9, 10+ years. Once I get to really digging a particular pair, the idea of trading them in becomes less appealing. Not as emotionally wrenching as trading in my dog(which would NEVER happen), but still and emotional experience. Also they can be difficult to catch if you do decide to try a different species. If I could start again from scratch, I would have spent a lot more time choosing my first pair. There's a good possiblity that you will end up keeping them for a long time.

4. Buy quality fish. A $20 clown may be more appealing than a $100 fish in the short run, but 2 years down the line, you might wish you had bit the bullet early on. If you spend let's say $250 on a really nice, healthy pair, the up front investment will pay dividends as the years pass. This is especially true if you have dreams of breeding them somewhere down the line. Low quality fish will generally produce low quality offspring. Wild caught specimens will help you develop a good idea of what the general characteristics that the species should be. Mis-bars are most often the result of poor husbandry in captive bred fish. If you buy a mis-bar Ocellaris, unless it is a stable genetic variation such as a snowflake, the poor barring on the fish is almost definatley a result of poor nutrition and water quality in the rearing set up. These flaws in the barring are rarely attributed to a genetic trait, and therefore won't carry on through subsequent generations. I personally would stick to perculas or occellaris, as they are reef safe, fun and energetic. If you do, I think body shape and coloration are the two best indicators of quality. There are many others, but a good shape and clean vibrant colors are where I normally start. As to body shape, I would look at the ratio of legth to height. I've studied a lot of WC fish, and I've found the average perc has a 1 to 2.8 ratio. 1 being the distance measured from top to bottom along the flat portion of the center bar, and 2.8 being the distance from the top lip to the rear cnter of the tail bar. The protrusion on the center bar should ideally be bisected by the longer measurement. For Ocellaris I've found it to be more like 1 to 2.6. Clean lines at the margins of the barring and strong and spunky swimming behavior are the other two factors that would be an absolute requirement for me. Lots more to consider, but you get the idea.

4. Be careful of any of the maroon clowns. They can destroy a reef tank. I've had it happen. They get BIG...and fiesty. Most anything in the Clarkii complex will also get rather large, but as I have never kept them, I can't comment on their behavior.


Having said all that, I wouldn't worry about breeding them. That's a long way off. They generally take at least 2.5 years to start breeding, and raising their fry is cash and labor intensive. Ocellaris are by far the easiest, and most common clowns around. A great starter fish. But I wouldn't buy anything from a big box store, there are plenty of reputable on-line retailers that will sell you quality fish if there aren't any good LFS in your area. I would personally only buy WYSIWYG from any of these sites though.

The main thing is that this hobby is supposed to be fun, so apart from educating yourself about potential long term disasters, I'd say if you see it, fall in love with it, and don't foresee any disasters based on your research......what more could anyone want?

 

[cet98]

Preface---- Everything stated below is a combination of my opinions and experiences. After pre-viewing my post, it seems to come of sort of preachy. Not my intention. Just trying to be comprehensive in my response.


Clownfish are kinda funny IMO. You can read thousands of different opinions on them, but without a LOT of experience in this hobby, there are some general guidelines I would suggest.

1. Stick with a single species. Although many people have had success mixing species, many more have had deadly failures. Just so you know I breed clowns and have 1000+ in my systems right now, so I have a decent amount of experience pairing and raising them. Many of the success stories I have seen involving inter-species mixing involve sub-adult clowns. When clowns reach sexual maturity, everything changes. This isn't just with clowns, there are countless examples of other species(both fresh and saltwater) that have dramatic personality shifts at this stage. Sexually mature clowns generally become hyper aggresive and will tend to stay that way.

2. Stick to one pair. Once again the sub-adults that you see swimming around in large groups in the LFS are not representative of what their behavior will ultimatley become. IMO a single pair of clowns are quite entertaining on their own, and introducing multiple pairs will IME diminish their naturally playfull nature, and cause them to spend a lot of their time stressed and often hiding. Also the likelyhood of all out war will always loom. They could be cool with it for long periods of time, especially if each pair can host a nem or something on opposite ends of the tank, but then one day you might come home to find armagedon.

3. Consider the life span of clowns. Clowns live a very long time in a well maintained system. 8, 9, 10+ years. Once I get to really digging a particular pair, the idea of trading them in becomes less appealing. Not as emotionally wrenching as trading in my dog(which would NEVER happen), but still and emotional experience. Also they can be difficult to catch if you do decide to try a different species. If I could start again from scratch, I would have spent a lot more time choosing my first pair. There's a good possiblity that you will end up keeping them for a long time.

4. Buy quality fish. A $20 clown may be more appealing than a $100 fish in the short run, but 2 years down the line, you might wish you had bit the bullet early on. If you spend let's say $250 on a really nice, healthy pair, the up front investment will pay dividends as the years pass. This is especially true if you have dreams of breeding them somewhere down the line. Low quality fish will generally produce low quality offspring. Wild caught specimens will help you develop a good idea of what the general characteristics that the species should be. Mis-bars are most often the result of poor husbandry in captive bred fish. If you buy a mis-bar Ocellaris, unless it is a stable genetic variation such as a snowflake, the poor barring on the fish is almost definatley a result of poor nutrition and water quality in the rearing set up. These flaws in the barring are rarely attributed to a genetic trait, and therefore won't carry on through subsequent generations. I personally would stick to perculas or occellaris, as they are reef safe, fun and energetic. If you do, I think body shape and coloration are the two best indicators of quality. There are many others, but a good shape and clean vibrant colors are where I normally start. As to body shape, I would look at the ratio of legth to height. I've studied a lot of WC fish, and I've found the average perc has a 1 to 2.8 ratio. 1 being the distance measured from top to bottom along the flat portion of the center bar, and 2.8 being the distance from the top lip to the rear cnter of the tail bar. The protrusion on the center bar should ideally be bisected by the longer measurement. For Ocellaris I've found it to be more like 1 to 2.6. Clean lines at the margins of the barring and strong and spunky swimming behavior are the other two factors that would be an absolute requirement for me. Lots more to consider, but you get the idea.

4. Be careful of any of the maroon clowns. They can destroy a reef tank. I've had it happen. They get BIG...and fiesty. Most anything in the Clarkii complex will also get rather large, but as I have never kept them, I can't comment on their behavior.


Having said all that, I wouldn't worry about breeding them. That's a long way off. They generally take at least 2.5 years to start breeding, and raising their fry is cash and labor intensive. Ocellaris are by far the easiest, and most common clowns around. A great starter fish. But I wouldn't buy anything from a big box store, there are plenty of reputable on-line retailers that will sell you quality fish if there aren't any good LFS in your area. I would personally only buy WYSIWYG from any of these sites though.

The main thing is that this hobby is supposed to be fun, so apart from educating yourself about potential long term disasters, I'd say if you see it, fall in love with it, and don't foresee any disasters based on your research......what more could anyone want?

now this is why I enjoy these forums...
thank you for this well written & informative post :thumbsup:

 

[NirvanaFan]

My clarkii pair is down right mean. The female has no problem biting anything that goes in the tank. Breeding tile, flexible tubing for water changes, even 1.5" pvc will get attacked. Know how a bear charges and stops before a threat? Both the male and female do the same thing!