Collecting in Japan and the Red Sea, and new Genetic tools

[Fcwham]

Hello RC Zoanthid community, long time no post. I was very active about 5 years ago on these forums but since starting grad school I’ve haven’t been posting. I attended the Manhatten reef club Frag swap last weekend and got some motivation to get active in the forums again. So here’s an update…

In high school and college I was a very active Zoanthid collector, now I’m a Symbiodinium, coral and zoanthid researcher, working on a PhD. I collected zoanthids in the Red Sea two years ago.


Here are some Zoanthus growing in the sand in Saudi Arabia.
.

After visiting the Red Sea I went to visit James Reimer in Okinawa and collected zoanthids with him there.


A picture of some nicely colored zoanthids at a deep location on the reef slope, I found that most of the red/orange colonies were found deep, although there were still a number of green colonies there as well.


A picture of some shallow, intertidal zoanthids. this was the typical color morph in the shallow locations. Mostly green. Many had differently colored centers but I don’t recall finding any red zoanthids in the intertidal.


Interestingly, zoanthids (particularly zoanthus sansibaricus) inhabit a large but discontinuous depth distribution Zoanthus sansibaricus is very common in the intertidal zone as well as the reef slope but are very rare in the 4-7 meter depth range. Their absence/ rare occurrence at these depths might be explained by predation by butterfly fish and competition with other corals like Acropora. I wanted to explore the genetic identity of their symbionts and how that related to their depth distribution. Additionally I wanted to see if the two groups of zoanthids were really the same, as I show above , they have some difference in the frequency of red and green coloration.

I’ve developed DNA markers for zoanthids that are similar to the ones used for crime scene investigation and paternity testing. If that interests you, you can read the abstract here: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12526-013-0150-y

In general they allow me to identify individuals as well as relationship between individuals so we can answer some pretty cool biological questions including questions that may be of interests to aquarists like:

Do zoanthids host different symbionts dependent on their depth?

Are deep and shallow zoanthids really the same species?

Are identical color morphs identical individuals?

Do zoanthids change symbionts when moved to different depth?

I’ve answered many of these questions, as they get published I’ll keep you all informed. Many of my research questions are inspired by phenomena I observed while keeping corals in my aquarium so I hope you will all find them interesting/informative or useful.

-Drew Wham

 

[Fcwham]

If someone could change the title to "Collecting in Japan and the Red Sea, and new Genetic tools" that would be awesome. I had a cut/paste issue.

 

[mfinn]

This is going to be cool thread.

 

[aandfsoccr04]

Very interesting. Following this thread

 

[A. Grandis]

You've got some nice shots there...
Please keep' em coming!

My guesses about the questions...

Do zoanthids host different symbionts dependent on their depth?

I believe they could host different symbionts, yes, but independent of their differences in depth alone. The type of symbionts found in them would be related to a variety of many different environmental conditions, which would include also depth, but not alone. I mean, I think it would be possible to find different symbionts in different colonies within the same depth too.

Are deep and shallow zoanthids really the same species?

I believe that yes you will find the very same species in different depths. No doubt about that.

Are identical color morphs identical individuals

Not aways, I would say. And that would depend on what would be the term "identical individuals" in question. Color morphs are more related to environment changes and adaptation most of the time, so would be relative to say that one could precisely determinate any "identification" with that info alone.

Do zoanthids change symbionts when moved to different depth?

They could. Again, I believe that zoas and other cnidarians could change symbionts independent of depth alone. Normally those changes occur after a stressful episode and normally the "original symbionts" are passed from the parent colonies to the daughter colonies, but I believe they do have the ability to change (release/capture) symbionts.

Just my wood in the fire...

It'll be very interesting to read your findings!!
Good topic and thanks for posting here!!
I'll try to follow this thread.

Grandis.

 

[Fcwham]

I believe they could host different symbionts, yes, but independent of their differences in depth alone. The type of symbionts found in them would be related to a variety of many different environmental conditions, which would include also depth, but not alone. I mean, I think it would be possible to find different symbionts in different colonies within the same depth too.

They could. Again, I believe that zoas and other cnidarians could change symbionts independent of depth alone. Normally those changes occur after a stressful episode and normally the "original symbionts" are passed from the parent colonies to the daughter colonies, but I believe they do have the ability to change (release/capture) symbionts.

.

Hi Grandis, thank you for your reply and input. Its interesting to hear peoples initial expectations are for these questions. Drawing from literature that is already published I can tell you that you are indeed correct on many counts. Zoas do host many symbiont types. Which type is determined by a number of ecological factors such as temperature, irradiance, depth, geographic region of collection etc... Here I am mostly focused on depth because of the strange pattern of abundance, where there are lots deep and shallow but few in-between. Depth here serves as a combined measure of irradiance and temperature as well as other factors like tidal exposure.

To clarify what I meant by "individual", the genetic markers show unique patterns for every colony. This pattern is like a unique barcode. For a new pattern to occur a sex event must happen where the offspring get half of their barcode from each parent. In the same way these genetic markers are used to tell people apart because there is such a low chance that two people would have the same pattern. Because offspring inherit their pattern from their parents it is possible to determine both relationship and unique genetic origin with these markers.

 

[NeilFox]

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting!

 

[A. Grandis]

Hi Grandis, thank you for your reply and input. Its interesting to hear peoples initial expectations are for these questions. Drawing from literature that is already published I can tell you that you are indeed correct on many counts. Zoas do host many symbiont types. Which type is determined by a number of ecological factors such as temperature, irradiance, depth, geographic region of collection etc... Here I am mostly focused on depth because of the strange pattern of abundance, where there are lots deep and shallow but few in-between. Depth here serves as a combined measure of irradiance and temperature as well as other factors like tidal exposure.

To clarify what I meant by "individual", the genetic markers show unique patterns for every colony. This pattern is like a unique barcode. For a new pattern to occur a sex event must happen where the offspring get half of their barcode from each parent. In the same way these genetic markers are used to tell people apart because there is such a low chance that two people would have the same pattern. Because offspring inherit their pattern from their parents it is possible to determine both relationship and unique genetic origin with these markers.

Thanks very much for the reply, Fcwhan!
Yes, I observe many different environmental aspects that makes influence in zoanthids' distribution. Specially when we focus on Zoanthus spp. It is so very interestingly diverse, and I get puzzled by them. There is so much more to learn!!!

Thanks for the clarification!!!
Now I understand that you're talking about genetics, generally speaking, in regards to the expression "identical individuals" (genetical strains). In that case the essence of their colors are directly related to sexual reproduction, representing/respecting obligatorily the parent colonies' genes. That is good to clarify because in the hobby many have their mind set on morphism as changes in colors due to adaptation necessities or stress (color changes).

So my guessed answer to question #3 (Are identical color morphs identical individuals), after what has been said here would be more like...

Again not aways. The reason for that would be simply because you can surely find "identical colors" (which is a visual impression and very vague to precisely determinate such generically related individual colonies) in too many distinctive colonies around the globe.
The colors alone shouldn't be the way to select them out, then.

One more note: the father colony and mother colony would probably need to be genetically identical to be able to produce such daughter colony through fertilization. It is good to point that many zoanthid species produce/release eggs and sperm at the same time. I'm not sure if they're able to reproduce new colonies that way. That makes the puzzle a little worse...

I do find many "very close related colonies" around relatively small geographic areas that we can see the color dominance in their genes. I love that stuff!!
They are almost the same, but if you really look at them you'll find the different shades and such.

Another very important observation is the "color morphism" due to light specially. That is easily observed when we find those different shades of colors in different polyps of the same colony. That can be observed in nature and in aquariums as well.

So... yeah... I would prefer to play strictly with genetics in order to determinate those individual proximities. I believe you would too.

Please post more about your studies. I'm sure we'll learn a lot around here!!!

I've been really really busy, but will try my best to come and learn more.

Cheers, :beer:
Grandis.

 

[NeilFox]

A. Grandis, perhaps a longshot; but did you happen to get any PAR readings at the differing depths where the Zoas are found? Thanks.

Neil

 

[A. Grandis]

A. Grandis, perhaps a longshot; but did you happen to get any PAR readings at the differing depths where the Zoas are found? Thanks.

Neil

Nope. I still don't have a PAR meter.
It would be an interesting project to do, I guess.
I don't know if there is an affordable water proof PAR meter, able to be submerged to SCUBA depths. Certainly it would be great to have some reading even in shallow water with an Apogee unit.
You would be surprised how much PAR some of the zoanthids would be able to take, when found close to the water surface in a clear/sunny day!!

The main thing to keep in mind is that light intensity and spectrum are responsible for a great deal of zoanthids' photo adaptation in closed systems, not PAR measurements alone!! Slow adaptation is so important.

Not to get the thread out of track...

Let's see what others have to add.:dance:

Grandis.

 

[NeilFox]

Nope. I still don't have a PAR meter.
It would be an interesting project to do, I guess.
I don't know if there is an affordable water proof PAR meter, able to be submerged to SCUBA depths. Certainly it would be great to have some reading even in shallow water with an Apogee unit.
You would be surprised how much PAR some of the zoanthids would be able to take, when found close to the water surface in a clear/sunny day!!

The main thing to keep in mind is that light intensity and spectrum are responsible for a great deal of zoanthids' photo adaptation in closed systems, not PAR measurements alone!! Slow adaptation is so important.

Not to get the thread out of track...

Let's see what others have to add.:dance:

Grandis.

Thank you for the reply. Here in Vietnam alot of Zoa's spend quite a bit of time actually high and dry at low tide. Often there seems to be alot of turbidity in these areas in the rainy season. I would think they respond to this varying light source quite quickly. Full on daylight to diffused lighting and low viz. I will see if I can get a few pics to add.

The spectrum and intensity would change rapidly in this case (not to mention salinity). Does this adaptation have any bearing on your research? Not trying to derail the thread. I wonder if these creatures would be easier to maintain or more difficult from this zone. Would it be worthwhile trying to duplicate the extremes or maintaining a stable environment?

 

[Fcwham]

Hi NeilFox,
Zoanthids in the intertidal do indeed go through a huge swing in light intensity, salinity, and wave intensity on a daily basis. My thoughts are that they are successful here because they can manage this stress better than other taxa so they have a competitive advantage in these environments. I don't think that they necessarily need these conditions for their health in our tanks.

As far as collecting these individuals over others for the aquarium. That may be a good idea, as long as you can offer light of similar intensity. You can take advantage of the natural selection of robust genotypes for this environment, you just wouldn't want to make them have to adapt to lower light.

 

[zoafarm]

tagging along...looks like a great discussion

 

[A. Grandis]

Thank you for the reply. Here in Vietnam alot of Zoa's spend quite a bit of time actually high and dry at low tide. Often there seems to be alot of turbidity in these areas in the rainy season. I would think they respond to this varying light source quite quickly. Full on daylight to diffused lighting and low viz. I will see if I can get a few pics to add.

The spectrum and intensity would change rapidly in this case (not to mention salinity). Does this adaptation have any bearing on your research? Not trying to derail the thread. I wonder if these creatures would be easier to maintain or more difficult from this zone. Would it be worthwhile trying to duplicate the extremes or maintaining a stable environment?

Yeah... we don't want to change the subject of the thread, but many other subjects about zoas are very interesting too. Let's try to bring back the original topic, shall we? But to give my insight on that...

No, not worthwhile trying to duplicate the extremes in closed systems at all!!
Believe me, the zoas would love to have the stability in the ocean!!

Well, Vietnam isn't the only place where zoas live in such harsh/sudden environmental changes. That's actually very common for many species and one of the well known qualities of them. In nature those extreme changes also can sometimes kill many large colonies at once, depending on the severity of the changes and exposure time. The thing is that in nature, many times those colonies are able to come back much faster than in closed systems, and after couple of months the geographic area is again covered with them because of their natural reproductive (sexually or asexually) rate/ability, in order to repopulate the area. Also, not all the colonies are damaged and the affected areas aren't often the same spots.

Those major deaths occur only when critical phenomena happen.

Normal fluctuations are very normal and one of the types of "life/death cycles" of zoanthid population in nature. Such harsh environmental changes don't occur so often and most of the time, if in a relatively short period of time, they don't even bother. It is normal to find colonies with all the polyps closed when we find strong changes in salinity (excessive rain), for example.

Like Fcwhan posted, zoanthids can tolerate such changes much better than many corals and other cnidarians and therefore some species of zoanthids could occupy geographic areas where other cnidarians aren't found at all. Normally those species share the area with algae, small fishes and anemones.

In closed systems the story is much different. We just can't offer all the help nature uses to take care of the zoanthids in the ocean, so stability is the key, along with the best that we can offer for their basic metabolism, as we know.

Another important note: there are many different species of zoanthids and not all of them have the same strength and abilities towards such events. That is why you will find distinctive species for totally different types of environments.
When we confined them in one tiny closed system there will be a need to maintain a healthy balanced environment to prevent disasters. And that's why people say some times that they can keep one species very well, but not another. Hard to find a common denominator for all the species to be kept together in captivity.

Good hear from someone in Vietnam!!!
They must have some nice colorful zoas around there!!! :thumbsup:

Back to the original topic?...
Sorry for the hijack!!

Cheers,
Grandis.

 

[NeilFox]

Firstly; thanks to all for the great replies to my questions.

Fcwham, I have a question regarding something out of your original post "Do zoanthids change symbionts when moved to different depth?". I don't know the answer but if they do; is it possible that zoanthids change symbionts in a closed system? If they do, how is it possible without outside influence?

 

[eugene2011]

the start of a great thread here!!

 

[Fcwham]

First, I'd like to say please feel free to ask or discuss anything here. My research is focused on differences amongst species of coral hosts and symbionts , adaptation to changing environments, and genetic differences between hosts and symbionts within and between geographic locations. I'm glad to entertain questions that arise from discussing these topics, wherever those questions take us thats fine with me. No apologies needed for hijack or being off topic.

It will always loop back around I'm sure.

Firstly; thanks to all for the great replies to my questions.

Fcwham, I have a question regarding something out of your original post "Do zoanthids change symbionts when moved to different depth?". I don't know the answer but if they do; is it possible that zoanthids change symbionts in a closed system? If they do, how is it possible without outside influence?

Great question, and one that can be answered from recent publications in coral reef research by my lab as well as others. Without being too long winded, when corals can host more than one symbiont type often they maintain both within their tissues. Even if the ratio is 100,000:1 they are both generally present. If the coral is moved from an environment that favors the abundant symbiont to an environment that favors the low abundance symbiont, competition between the two eventually flips the ratio.

There is speculation in aquarium forums in other threads on various sites that discuss zoox going from one coral in a tank to another. While I don't want to say that this doesn't happen, it is more than likely quite rare compared to changes that occur between the symbionts a coral already has.

While this hasnt really been demonstrated in an aquarium, it has been several times in the field. If this particularly interests someone I could attempt to show the process in one of my tanks here.

 

[A. Grandis]

First, I'd like to say please feel free to ask or discuss anything here. My research is focused on differences amongst species of coral hosts and symbionts , adaptation to changing environments, and genetic differences between hosts and symbionts within and between geographic locations. I'm glad to entertain questions that arise from discussing these topics, wherever those questions take us thats fine with me. No apologies needed for hijack or being off topic.

It will always loop back around I'm sure.



Great question, and one that can be answered from recent publications in coral reef research by my lab as well as others. Without being too long winded, when corals can host more than one symbiont type often they maintain both within their tissues. Even if the ratio is 100,000:1 they are both generally present. If the coral is moved from an environment that favors the abundant symbiont to an environment that favors the low abundance symbiont, competition between the two eventually flips the ratio.

There is speculation in aquarium forums in other threads on various sites that discuss zoox going from one coral in a tank to another. While I don't want to say that this doesn't happen, it is more than likely quite rare compared to changes that occur between the symbionts a coral already has.

While this hasnt really been demonstrated in an aquarium, it has been several times in the field. If this particularly interests someone I could attempt to show the process in one of my tanks here.

Good stuff!!!!
Please go ahead!


Grandis.

 

[Fcwham]

I'd need some zoanthids though All of mine are preserved in alcohol for DNA extraction and aren't likely to be switching their zoax. I do have 2x 30gal breeders setup with t5s that we keep our experimental corals in, I can run the experiment there. Then do the genetics every few weeks to show them changing or not changing.

If there's a zoa keeper thats interested in participating, I could imagine doing a couple of cool experiments. I'll be running a bunch of the DNA markers for wild collected samples next month any way i could put them on with those samples. It might make for a cool article for one of the online reef aquarium publications.

 

[A. Grandis]

I though you had the system running already...
It would be great if you can collect the samples for the experiment.

It is very unlikely that you would find out they could exchange their zooxanthellae in your system, as we know. It's more about availability in the water than anything else, I believe. Plus, they must need to change or to be stimulated for that in order for that to happen.
When one call exchange that would probably be expelling "X zooxanthellae species", and ingesting "Y zooxanthellae species", right? That would have to be between two different zoanthid species. The needs for the zoanthids to do that would vary, but in a stablished system the chances are very remote IMO. They would be more likely to do that when in their adaptation period (after introduced to the stablished system), if so, but even though the skimmer would export the algae fast!
Another thought, and even more interesting, would be to see if they do that when we change the lights of the aquarium, after 12+ months. That would be a great research!!

The experiment would have to be in a well stablished/stable system without skimmer and during adaptation period of healthy zoanthid colonies, I guess. Skimmer could be running normally until the project starts. Also the symbionts would need to be artificially introduced to the system for the purpose, simulating the natural environment...
It's just so unlikely to have them exchanging their symbionts from one polyp to another in a closed system.
Interesting!

In the meanwhile could you please show/tell us more about the symbiont species and other interesting zoanthid facts in that regard?

1) Have you noticed the percentage of zooxanthellae changing according to light exposure? Could you tell us more about that?

2) What is the most available/found symbiont species in zoanthids? Please feel free to choose one species/geographic location for the answer, if that is the case.

3) Could you please list the species of zooxanthellae found in zoanthids?

Kinda off topic...

4) Please tell us what you see in their guts when you open them for the researches!!

Sorry for so many questions. I just think it is good to have your prospect around here...
I have 2.957.588.921 more questions for you, but I really, really have to go...
:fun5:

Grandis.