Concerned - 10 g Package dying?

[shearwater]

Omchris, good luck, and please keep us posted on your progress!

Except for the bickering, this is a great thread. I was wondering if it would be appropriate to "hitchhike" on it, pun intended -- I have almost the same problem as Omchris. Below is an email which I sent to TBS 2 days ago. I appreciate your thoughts ...



"Recently while vacationing in Tampa (Feb. 21), I stopped in to purchase 25 lb. of premium/coral live rock at your store. I'd been reading the excellent reports of TBS rock on reefcentral and simply had to get some myself (my plan is to add it to the 25 lbs of live rock already in my 30 gal setup).

I've had a lot of problems with the curing of my TBS live rock, and was hoping you have some suggestions. Your folks packed it in the standard shipping box with water and a heat pack. The problems started with USAirways, who handled your box very roughly on my flight to Manchester NH. As the box came down the baggage carousel, I was dismayed to see that it was
soaked!! During transit, the rock had punctured the double plastic bag and it lost almost all the water. Additionally, the styrofoam cracked. I estimate it could have been out of water for 10+ hours. I tried to file a claim with USAirways, but they pointed to a written policy that fragile and perishable items were not covered!

Since 2/21, I have been curing it in a 10 gallon quarantine tank. There has been a lot of die-off. The tube worms were the first to go, then 2 oysters, followed by a nice orange tunicate. The "sea-pork" also (which was the one organism we really didn't care about), and now also the tube coral is looking like it probably won't make it (mostly white with only small brown centers), a nice brain coral is half dead, and even the barnacles are dying. Surprisingly, some of the light-brown sponges are still OK.

I should add that I keep it at 74 deg. F, 1.023 S.G., filtered with a
Penguin 125 hang-on, fluorescent lit, and every day I change 50% of the water and remove or siphon off dead tissue. I swap the protein skimmer between my main tank and th 10g every other day. I've gone through two 50-gal bags of Instant Ocean mix.

This has been going on for 3 weeks now, and I'm not sure I'll have anything left once the die-off is over! Is there anything I'm doing wrong? It's been so disappointing; everyone else is really happy with your product and all the extra hitchhikers it normally carries, but our rocks are looking like dead rocks, and I'm really afraid to put it into my main tank (definitely not yet).

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated! Thanks"

 

[SPC]

I estimate it could have been out of water for 10+ hours.

but our rocks are looking like dead rocks

And they probably are after being out of the water for this length of time. Some life will survive I'm sure, but the more fragile life is most likely a goner.
Steve

 

[liverock]

Omchris, good luck, and please keep us posted on your progress!

Except for the bickering, this is a great thread. I was wondering if it would be appropriate to "hitchhike" on it, pun intended -- I have almost the same problem as Omchris. Below is an email which I sent to TBS 2 days ago. I appreciate your thoughts ...



"Recently while vacationing in Tampa (Feb. 21), I stopped in to purchase 25 lb. of premium/coral live rock at your store. I'd been reading the excellent reports of TBS rock on reefcentral and simply had to get some myself (my plan is to add it to the 25 lbs of live rock already in my 30 gal setup).

I've had a lot of problems with the curing of my TBS live rock, and was hoping you have some suggestions. Your folks packed it in the standard shipping box with water and a heat pack. The problems started with USAirways, who handled your box very roughly on my flight to Manchester NH. As the box came down the baggage carousel, I was dismayed to see that it was
soaked!! During transit, the rock had punctured the double plastic bag and it lost almost all the water. Additionally, the styrofoam cracked. I estimate it could have been out of water for 10+ hours. I tried to file a claim with USAirways, but they pointed to a written policy that fragile and perishable items were not covered!

Since 2/21, I have been curing it in a 10 gallon quarantine tank. There has been a lot of die-off. The tube worms were the first to go, then 2 oysters, followed by a nice orange tunicate. The "sea-pork" also (which was the one organism we really didn't care about), and now also the tube coral is looking like it probably won't make it (mostly white with only small brown centers), a nice brain coral is half dead, and even the barnacles are dying. Surprisingly, some of the light-brown sponges are still OK.

I should add that I keep it at 74 deg. F, 1.023 S.G., filtered with a
Penguin 125 hang-on, fluorescent lit, and every day I change 50% of the water and remove or siphon off dead tissue. I swap the protein skimmer between my main tank and th 10g every other day. I've gone through two 50-gal bags of Instant Ocean mix.

This has been going on for 3 weeks now, and I'm not sure I'll have anything left once the die-off is over! Is there anything I'm doing wrong? It's been so disappointing; everyone else is really happy with your product and all the extra hitchhikers it normally carries, but our rocks are looking like dead rocks, and I'm really afraid to put it into my main tank (definitely not yet).

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated! Thanks"




Our rock is not sick, and does not need to be "Cured".

Putting 25# rock into a a 10 gallon tank that is not establised will kill the rock as the rock needs a stable environment to survive.

Our rock must be placed into adequate water quality, that is a tank that is already established or a new tank with the right amount of live sand and bacteria, along with water changes to keep the ammonia in the safe range.

Faliure to do this will kill the rock as the water quality degrades and the rock dies.

Unfortunatly the rock was treated like fiji rock which must be cured before use.

One again, never try to "cure" our rock as it will kill it.


Next time you are in town come back by the store and we will fix you up.

Please folks, read and follow directions on our web site under the "Package" info and you will have a happy reef tank!

Thanks
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

 

[omchris]

Back Again

Back Again

Well I am back at it again. I picked up the 1 st half of my 10 g package on Saturday once again. Most of pieces that they had in on Saturday were way too big for my 10 g so the pieces I got were not as nice as my first attempt. This is not to say that the pieces are not nice, but they do not have as much life as the first and I had to actually get several small pieces to make up my quantity. I did manage to get one really really neat peice that my spotted right away and wanted. I found out after we had picked it that it is actually a piece of a much larger cup coral that probably broke off while harvesting. it is about 6" x 4" and form an arch. The top part is full deep red (stunning). It will make a nice cave. (A pity I don't have a camera to take pics). Anyway, I took everything home under water of course. Did not want to take the chance and did not do the 20 min out. I put everything in the tank as directed except that my rock did not sit out at all. Thought I would deal with any bad hitchhikers later. I had to go out Saturday afternoon so I was a bit concerned especially after my first bad experience. Well got home around midnight gearing up for a water change, but no ammonia was at 0.50, nitrite 0, nitrate 5 and ph 7.8. Added some Amquel (not taking any changes) and some bio-zyme). On Sunday morning had some errands to run so checked the water params again about noon. Ammonia was a little less than 1.0 everything else remained the same, so I did an 8 gal water change to bring ammonia to .25 and added some more biozyme.

On Sunday morning I found a gorilla crab that I quickly took out of the tank. During the morning I heard some popping sounds so wasn't sure if they are mantis or pistol, so I thought time would tell. Well what do you know, later that night, from a hole in one of the rocks facing the front of the tank (I have a jbj nano cube by the way which I have modified totally, but one of the things I like is that the front is bowed and to me it seems to make stuff look a little larger which is pretty neat) I dart something dart right back in. Waited a little and out pops a mantis. Tried to get a little closer and in he went. Called my wife and we both stared and waited and no disappointment out he came and just stared at us. If we made an movement he would dart back in and he actually played this game for a time. Anyway I knew I had to get him out. I read some where that a high salinity shot works well. So I got a container big enough to put the rock in, filled it with the water I have waiting for water changes and put the rock in there (not taking any chances with having my rock out of water if I do not have to). I mixed some very salty water in a small container and used a platic syringe to shoot water in his hole. Well after two shots he flew right out of the rock. I quickly removed the rock and put it back in the tank. The manits was about 2" (looked sort of scary actually). I was so excited I called my wife, who freaked out, not a big fan of creep crawly looking things). Well in all my excitement I forgot that with the two shots the water in the container was now very salty, so the poor guy did not make it.

Anyway checked the params after this episode and ammonia was at 0.50 so I added some more Amquel and went to bed. All other parms are holding constant right now. This morning ammonia was at 1.0. Change another 8 g and brought it back down to 0.25, added Amquel and some more biozyme. I have heard another clicking so I am not sure if Mr. Mantis had a friend or I was lucky enough to get a pistol. Will see what happens.

So this time eveything seems to be going better than I expected. I hope it continues this way. Will see what awaits me when I get home tonight.

Sorry for the long post. Will update on my progress.

 

[docklink]

No need to apologize for the long post. Really glad to hear things are starting off on a smoother note this time. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. Keep us apprised.

 

[shearwater]

Welcome back omchris,

How many lbs of rock are in there now, about 10-12? Do you have the live sand too?

 

[omchris]

Thanks Shearwater.

There are 10 lbs of live rock and the live sand.

 

[delta]

FWIW
i would be very careful with any additive at this point you shouldnt really need to add anything other than new saltwater for water changes. most bioenzyme don't work anyway i can see neutralizing premixed water if you use tap water but not once its in the tank.
But if you feel the need, be very careful especially due to the fact it will probably void any guaranty you have and if you used the first time around i would stop. This is just my opinion but like it says on the TBS website follow the directions and we guaranty a beautiful reef tank.

unless Richard or Mary advised you to do this then disregard this post they are far more experienced than i will ever be

 

[liverock]

Re: Back Again

Re: Back Again

Well I am back at it again. I picked up the 1 st half of my 10 g package on Saturday once again. Most of pieces that they had in on Saturday were way too big for my 10 g so the pieces I got were not as nice as my first attempt. This is not to say that the pieces are not nice, but they do not have as much life as the first and I had to actually get several small pieces to make up my quantity. I did manage to get one really really neat peice that my spotted right away and wanted. I found out after we had picked it that it is actually a piece of a much larger cup coral that probably broke off while harvesting. it is about 6" x 4" and form an arch. The top part is full deep red (stunning). It will make a nice cave. (A pity I don't have a camera to take pics). Anyway, I took everything home under water of course. Did not want to take the chance and did not do the 20 min out. I put everything in the tank as directed except that my rock did not sit out at all. Thought I would deal with any bad hitchhikers later. I had to go out Saturday afternoon so I was a bit concerned especially after my first bad experience. Well got home around midnight gearing up for a water change, but no ammonia was at 0.50, nitrite 0, nitrate 5 and ph 7.8. Added some Amquel (not taking any changes) and some bio-zyme). On Sunday morning had some errands to run so checked the water params again about noon. Ammonia was a little less than 1.0 everything else remained the same, so I did an 8 gal water change to bring ammonia to .25 and added some more biozyme.

On Sunday morning I found a gorilla crab that I quickly took out of the tank. During the morning I heard some popping sounds so wasn't sure if they are mantis or pistol, so I thought time would tell. Well what do you know, later that night, from a hole in one of the rocks facing the front of the tank (I have a jbj nano cube by the way which I have modified totally, but one of the things I like is that the front is bowed and to me it seems to make stuff look a little larger which is pretty neat) I dart something dart right back in. Waited a little and out pops a mantis. Tried to get a little closer and in he went. Called my wife and we both stared and waited and no disappointment out he came and just stared at us. If we made an movement he would dart back in and he actually played this game for a time. Anyway I knew I had to get him out. I read some where that a high salinity shot works well. So I got a container big enough to put the rock in, filled it with the water I have waiting for water changes and put the rock in there (not taking any chances with having my rock out of water if I do not have to). I mixed some very salty water in a small container and used a platic syringe to shoot water in his hole. Well after two shots he flew right out of the rock. I quickly removed the rock and put it back in the tank. The manits was about 2" (looked sort of scary actually). I was so excited I called my wife, who freaked out, not a big fan of creep crawly looking things). Well in all my excitement I forgot that with the two shots the water in the container was now very salty, so the poor guy did not make it.

Anyway checked the params after this episode and ammonia was at 0.50 so I added some more Amquel and went to bed. All other parms are holding constant right now. This morning ammonia was at 1.0. Change another 8 g and brought it back down to 0.25, added Amquel and some more biozyme. I have heard another clicking so I am not sure if Mr. Mantis had a friend or I was lucky enough to get a pistol. Will see what happens.

So this time eveything seems to be going better than I expected. I hope it continues this way. Will see what awaits me when I get home tonight.

Sorry for the long post. Will update on my progress.

Please follow the directions....NO amquel....please read the directions... ammonia is controlled by water changes NOT CHEMICALS........do what we tell you and you will have a happy tank as thousands of our customers have........you are on the road to disaster again.....this is why after your first failure...I replaced your rock and sand at no charge, but if you do not follow the directions you are on your own...please , a 10 gallon tank is very hard anyway, if you do not do it right it will puke again...

Rchard TBS
wwww.tbsaltwater.com



:rollface: :rollface: :rollface:

 

[omchris]

Thanks Richard. I was just trying to be cautious. I will immediately stop adding anything to the tank. I have been keeping up with the water changes and the ammonia has not passed 1ppm yet. By the time it approaches 1 ppm I do a water change to bring it all the way down again. I will follow your advice.

Thanks,
Omar

 

[liverock]

Thanks Richard. I was just trying to be cautious. I will immediately stop adding anything to the tank. I have been keeping up with the water changes and the ammonia has not passed 1ppm yet. By the time it approaches 1 ppm I do a water change to bring it all the way down again. I will follow your advice.

Thanks,
Omar

Good!


Richard TBS
wwww.tbsaltwater.com
:rollface: :rollface: :rollface:

 

[omchris]

Almost there?

Almost there?

Hello,

First thank to Richard for getting me back on track.

For the first day my ammonia climbed to 1.0 and my nitrite to .25 and nitrates at 0.5. I did all the necessary water changes, but was adding Amquel as a precaution. Richard set me straight and I stopped immediately. Since then my ammonia has started to come down an alternates between .25 and .50 but no higher. My nitrites never passed 0.25 and now actually stays at 0. I had very limited die off and removed those as soon as I could. My water is crystal clear and absolutely no smell. The first few days my protein skimmer pulled out some extremely nasty looking and smelling stuff, but for the last two days it has hardly been pulling out anything.

I am now on day seven. Could it be that this first part of the cycle is almost over or do I absolutely have to wait until my ammonia goes down to 0 and stays there?

Omar

 

[delta]

Great to hear things are going well congrats
I would wait a few days after you hit zero to order 2nd shipment
to make sure the cycle is done

 

[Whiterat]

Sounds like you're doing well this time, omchris.

I'm getting into this thread really late but I know of one fellow who got a 10g rubbermaid container, punched a hole in the side and epoxied just enough tubing in to 'guide' the overflow down into his main 12g tank, then put a powerhead in the 12g with more 3/4" tubing leading up into the rubbermaid, so overflow and gravity connected the two. He cycled his 12g nano this way as if it were a '22g' nano and never had significant ammonia/nitrite/nitrate spikes because of the extra water helping to dilute. This also made it very easy for him to change out large chunks of water in the 'system' without exposing his LR to air at all.

I went with TBSW live rock for my 29g, and have been extremely happy.

Ratty
Ratty's Reef

 

[PRC]

omchris, I'd agree with Whiterat on this one. Life would be much easier if you could increase the volume of your system at least until the second half has cycled. It should be pretty simple and cheap to setup. Otherwise I'd plan on doing very frequent water changes and being very careful to match the change water parameters with those of your tank.
And, yes, wait til your Ammonia goes to 0 and stays.
Oh, and get rid of the Amquel altogether. Why would you need that stuff for a 10G? Just buy some RO water at the grocery store if you don't have a filter. The fewer additives you put in the tank the better off you'll be IMO.

 

[daFrimpster]

yep and Amquel is known to give false ammonia readings too! Just follow the advice of the guy you bought the rock from. And remember "nothing good happens fast in reef keeping" you are showing tremndous dedication with all you have gone through and not giving up. Keep on keepin' on and you'll actually begin to enjoy this hobby.