Confused

C

conk12301

New member
Ok, so I have some freshwater experience in the past. Just graduated college and figured I'd move on to the salt water challenge.

I'd like to get some clown fish. So far, I've got a 35 gallon tank and the live sand is down with the salt water in. (The guy at PETCO told me to wait on the live rock until the live sand cycles.)

Now, I'm confused about some of the terms... the difference between a marine tank, reef tank, FOWLR tank and what exactly coral is. I understand it's best to start with live rock and live sand, which is what the saltwater tanks at PETCO had. But none of them had any of the colorful plants growing on the rocks that I see in pictures online. They were just rocks sitting in the sand. I'd like to get some of that colorful if possible... but what exactly is it? Is that the coral? Or is that something different? Once my live rock is in place how difficult is it to get some of that colorful stuff? I guess I'm confused because I assumed the colorful stuff could only be done in a reef tank but then I saw a picture of a marine tank on wikipedia with the colorful plants on the rocks.

I know this wasn't worded well since I'm confused and it's a very generic question but if anyone could help clarify that would be great.
 
Another question... the guy at PETCO told me since I already set the salinity on the water in my tank, I could dump the live sand right into the water as long as I turn off the filter. I did just that and the sand settled to the bottom, but the water is cloudy as anything. Should I turn the filter back on to clear it up or will the rest settle on its own?
 
Well you definitely have some learning to do yet, but you've come to the right place! I'd be cautious taking any advice from the local PETCO, they as well as many other local fish stores are notorious for giving bad information.

On to some definitions
Marine Tank - generic term for any saltwater tank
Reef Tank - Saltwater aquarium set up to provide the proper environment for corals (requires more maticulous care)
FOWLR - Fish Only With Live Rock

FOWLR is a great place to start for newcomers to the hobby. This allows you to create the saltwater aquarium environment and get the pretty colorful fish, but it also gets you used to routine tank maintenance and good husbandry.

I wouldn't worry about waiting to get the LR in there because the addition of the LR will most likely cause a cycle again anyway. I would worry about getting the LR from Petco however.

As for making the leap into reef aquaria, I personally don't think you're quite ready and the last thing I'd like to see happen is you go out and spend BIG $$$$ on some nice corals and have them just die off. Reef aquaria requires more strict water parameters and lighting than a FOWLR does. Plus you can always go from FOWLR to Reef tank when you've learned how to make the tank flourish!

Hope that helps!!!
 
The guy at petco probably knows nothing, and the general consesus I have seen is that people cycle both the sand and rock at the same time. That is how I did it also. A FOWLR tank is a Fish Only With Live Rock, and a Reef has corals and sometimes fish and a marine tank just means saltwater. The "colorful plants" are coral and most of the soft coral really is not as hard as it sounds, but you would benifit from upgrading your light and possibly some other equipment.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13278351#post13278351 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by conk12301
Another question... the guy at PETCO told me since I already set the salinity on the water in my tank, I could dump the live sand right into the water as long as I turn off the filter. I did just that and the sand settled to the bottom, but the water is cloudy as anything. Should I turn the filter back on to clear it up or will the rest settle on its own?
Click to expand...

I'd leave the filter off for now, it'll settle. Did you rinse the sand at all before putting it in? Usually when setting up a new tank you'd rinse the sand and put it into a dry aquarium, then add the water so it doesn't cloud up as much. But it will go away.

Another BIG question, what type of water are you using??? Tap water, or did you purchase an RO/DI unit. I'm assuming PETCO didn't mention anything about Reverse Osmosis / DeIonized water. Regular tap water is FILLED with impurities that will cause unwanted algae blooms in the not so distant future.

If you did just put in tap, I'd drain all the water and start fresh with RO/DI mixed with salt. This will also get rid of the cloudiness mostly for good.
 
Fisrt thing First dont listen to sonmeone from Petco. Do a lot of reading here. spend a couple weeks reading here then you will have the knowledge to start your salt water adventure.

Second get your live rock now. That or you will have to cycle your tank twice. once from the live sand, and again from the live rock unless you cure it seperatly.

Third. Marine tank is a saltwater tank. FOWLR is fish only with live rock. Reef is live rock and corals and maybe a few fish.

I would stay away from live rock with a lot of crap growing on it, but thats just me, many people like to get that stuff.

Like I said before, you need to do about 2 weeks of reading. Also I would look to see if there are any reef clubs in your area. they are a wealth of knowledge.
 
Thanks for the quick replies. Very helpful.

As far as live rock goes, I'm going to assume getting it from PETCO would be a bad idea. Only problem is if I buy it online, wouldn't I have to cure it myself once it gets shipped? Is there anywhere that sells it ready to use upon arrival?

Also, how does base rock work? What ratio of liverock to base rock is effective? And how would you place the rock -- base on top of the live rock or underneath?

Thanks again.
 
Base rock is usually the same stuff as live rock, it's just dry and usually clean as it hasn't had any life on it in forever. If you dug up some "rock" around a coral beach, that would be base rock. Or perhaps even rock someone used to have in their tank that they let die and dry up. Pretty much all liverock that is shipped has some die off and needs to re-cure. Unless you get it from a store that has it sitting in a tank for a few weeks, or from a fellow reefer that has had it in his tank, it will probably require some curing. Many people just throw it in their new tanks and let it cure in there, and thus start the cycle. Buy some simple test kits to monitor your cycle (ammonia, nitrate,nitrites) and don't throw any animals in the tank until it is finished. People will holler at you on this site if you do so, but many other throw in snails or a cheap fish and don't tell anyone :) . Someone asked you about what type of water you are using, if it is just tap... you may need to do some research. Most folks use RO/DI water (reverse osmosis de-ionized) which is ultra pure and free of heavy metals and contaminants. Oh, i just read your whole post.. as someone after me posted, you aren't going to have any more than 50lbs of rock total in that size tank (1-2 lbs per gallon general guideline). You can use base rock as the foundation for your rock pile, or you can mix it with live rock if you're on a budget. I would get some base as the foundation, then find some really nice pieces to place on top of it if you have the money. No point in putting expensive live rock in your tank and half bury it in the sand.
 
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You can buy from Petco. Almost all live rock in the LFS is going to be the same from LFS to LFS. Fiji is Fiji, Tonga is Tonga, etc. The key is finding some rock that you like--nice, big pieces; interesting shapes; it's a bonus if they are covered in coralline algae (the pink/purple/blue/green crust that you see on live rock), but don't get your hopes up. My motto is, buy live rock from the cheapest place possible, as long as it looks/feels/smells good. If you buy on-line, yes, you are going to have to cycle the tank (6-8 weeks). If you want a pretty quick and easy cycle, buy fully cured live rock from Petco or another LFS. You can tell if it's cured by smelling it--pick it up and sniff. If it smells like the ocean, it's good. If it smells like your grandad's underwear after a day of cutting grass, don't buy it.

When you say you have "live sand", what do you mean? Did you get some ages sand from someone, or did you buy pre-packaged live sand like CaribSea's Arag-Alive?

Your tank is small-you're only going to need 35 lbs of LR or so--I wouldn't worry about finding base rock and stressing over proportions. Chances are, you won't be able to get much rock in there so you might as well go for all premium stuff.

If you're thinking of getting 2 clowns, know that you've pretty much maxed out on fish in a 35g.

Finally, before you do anything, it sounds like you need to do some reading. While RC is a great resource, I would recommend sitting down with some good books. Two that are must-haves are Robert Fenner's The Conscientious Marine Aquariast (2nd edition just came out--has a picture of a lemonpeel angel on the cover--don't buy the 1st edition, as it's outdated) and Anthony Calfo's Reef Invertebrates.
 
first off,this is the best place you can come to learn about marine ecosystem keeping!.

second,keeping a FOWLR is not neccessarily easier then keeping a " reef " type tank,whatever that means to anyone.

IMHO,do not buy into the idea that keeping marine fish is the place to start with.

If you read through the thousands of posts here on RC,most problems begin with fish added to successful "reef " tanks.If the fish are not QT,( meaning the fish are not seperated for a duration of time to identify disease/parasites,then added to an established reef tank,the problems compound.

I truely believe that many of the marine fish you will see and desire are more demanding than many of the corals and zoos kept in so called " reef " systems.

There,let the slings and arrows fly!
 
Check out some of the sponsor forums when looking for base/live rock.

Someone mentioned looking for a local reef club - that's a really good idea. There is no substitute for seeing how others have set up their tanks, asking questions, looking at the "behind the scenes" configuration (plumbing, wiring, lighting, etc.), and sharing opinions is a great way to learn. Often members of a reef club are good sources for some live sand to help get a tank started.

Plan what kind of setup you want - reef, FOWLR, fish-only. What kind of coral do you want to keep (assuming you decide on a reef tank)? What kind of fish do you want to keep? Answering these questions will help you make decisions regarding the kind of equipment you will require. For example, you will need a better (read "more expensive") lighting system if you decide to keep coral.

Someone also mentioned RO/DI water. Make the investment now on a RO/DI system. It will pay for itself many fold.

Read and study as much as you can about this hobby. Read about water chemistry, filtration, animal husbandry, lighting parameters, species compatibility, plumbing, wiring, and anything else you find. All of these subjects are covered in great detail in the forums on this site. Another good book is "The Reef Aquarium: Science, Art, and Technology" by J. Charles Delbeek and Julian Sprung.

I'm sure more knowledgeable, experienced people will have better ideas and suggestions. Good luck and have fun!
 
Hi,
Only advice I can give is to research research research prior to buying equipment. It's really a good idea to visit different stores and try to check out tanks of local club members to help you figure out what you would like to keep in your tank and what type of setup/lights etc., you like, then buy the equipment to support that. Even if you start off as a FOWLR... buy the equipment for what you eventually want to have....that will save you from buying equipment twice if you decide later to go from fowlr to a reef. Buy the best skimmer (read: not the cheapest) you can(buying this item used is great), proven lighting and a good reflector. ;) :D

Cheers,
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13279287#post13279287 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by discusone
keeping a FOWLR is not neccessarily easier then keeping a " reef " type tank,whatever that means to anyone.

If you read through the thousands of posts here on RC,most problems begin with fish added to successful "reef " tanks.If the fish are not QT, the problems compound.

There,let the slings and arrows fly!
Click to expand...

You asked for it.....

FOWLR is (in my opinion) Much easier than keeping a reef tank. Fish are much much more forgiving when it comes to water quality, whereas corals (even easy to keep ones) require a lot more upkeep.

A reef tank requires more frequent testing, more supplementation (calcium and alkalinity among others) as well as a larger knowledgebase regarding the corals you're keeping and the fish you keep as well.

So yes, a FOWLR is easier than a Reef tank. The issue with most reefers having problems with fish is usually due to the lack of proper acclimation and not QTing.

Rant off......
 
Hey, welcome! Once you're in, you never go back! :D

I think previous posts have answered your questions. But I'll chime in my two cents.

Reef Central's a good place to start. I've been researching this hobby for a year and I just barely made the plunge a month ago and bought a nano (smaller than 30 gallons or around there... It's debated) tank...!

I was kinda confused as to where to start researching. I just kinda fumbled around the internet until I found this site around April. To get a good idea of what a marine aquarium really is, what it requires, different kinds of setups used, and just really how everything works, I would go here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1031074

It's like a beginners page. It's a GREAT introduction to marine aquariums. It doesn't overwhelm you and nor does it skim too light. I read this and when I found something I didn't understand, I would do a Google search and read more. Works wonders (for me, at least) and really gets you started.

However, don't expect to be an expert before you start! Even the most experienced hobbyists don't know what to do sometimes. In this hobby, you can never know all of the information. :)

On to your original posts...

Petco... isn't quite that reliable, I have to agree. I'm not sure where you live, but it's best to find a few LFS's (local fish stores) and check out what they have and how healthy their stock is (when you're able to tell what looks right from what looks wrong).

You've added your live sand... Okay. You can wait until the cloudy water settles and add the rock, or you can do it now. I've seen it done both ways and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. Adding live rock will get your cycle started. How long it will last depends on where your rock has been and if it has been pre-cycled or not. Usually, curing takes anywhere from 2 to 8 weeks.

I wouldn't turn on the filter until the dust settles. Sand gets caught in there and plugs things up real good.

In my opinion, FOWLR tanks are easier to manage than reef tanks. Fish are more forgiving of skewy parameters than corals are. However, the only thing with fish is that you have to watch the bioload (look it up. :D ). Adding more fish increases the bioload, subtracting fish reduces bioload.

I'll leave that link up there to finish this train of thought. Get ready, 'cause you got a lot of research to do. But it's well worth it. :)

Hopefully someone will chime in with more experience than I. :D

Happy reefing! Or FOWLR-ing... :lol:
 
Hiya Conk

1588989513Reefnut_welcome.gif

To Reef Central

Lots of good advise here so far. I would also agree that you need to loose your consultant at the local pet store. Go ahead and get the rock you want in the tank. You can buy it cured or uncured. That's a decision you will have to make. Cycle the tank with the rock in it. While the tank is cycling you should take the time to learn as much as you can. You have a serious learning curve to get past. The best advise I can give you is to start reading. Read everything you can find on this site and then get yourself a couple of good books to read. In fact you may want to read a couple of good books first. Here's a good link to check out.
Good luck http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-01/tips/index.php
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13279065#post13279065 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by abulgin
You can buy from Petco. Almost all live rock in the LFS is going to be the same from LFS to LFS. Fiji is Fiji, Tonga is Tonga, etc. The key is finding some rock that you like--nice, big pieces; interesting shapes; it's a bonus if they are covered in coralline algae (the pink/purple/blue/green crust that you see on live rock), but don't get your hopes up. My motto is, buy live rock from the cheapest place possible, as long as it looks/feels/smells good. If you buy on-line, yes, you are going to have to cycle the tank (6-8 weeks). If you want a pretty quick and easy cycle, buy fully cured live rock from Petco or another LFS. You can tell if it's cured by smelling it--pick it up and sniff. If it smells like the ocean, it's good. If it smells like your grandad's underwear after a day of cutting grass, don't buy it.
Click to expand...

I don't know about everyone elses Petco, but at ours the rock is far from anything you would want to look at everyday,( same round shape with a hole in the middle, no coralline, nothing) and $8 lb to boot!! I never realized how horrible it was until I got some "real" rock
 
A great book that was really helpful for me when I first started a year ago was:

The New Marine Aquarium by M. Paletta

It was the best $10 I ever spent. It introduces the terminology, and goes through the basics with lots of pictures.
 
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