Continuing Tank problems - Fish demises

[mdrobc1213]

Okay have had issues with increased nitrates since around early Oct on my 150g reef tank which has resulted in numerous fish deaths over the last 90 days. Started with my juvenile Passer angel (tiny) and then my Kole Tang, and damsels and clownfish over the course of Oct-Nov. So have worked with LFS on numerous water changes and additions to include Media reactors x2 (Biopellets in one and DeNitrate in another), addition of mangrove shoots also (last month). Finally got water parameters improved here's some trend data [was testing multiple times weekly] to give some idea of what I was looking like:

5 Oct 15 (First DEATH] = ph 8.2, SG 1.031, temp 82, Ammonia 0.25, Nitrate 80, Nitrite 0

13 Oct 15 = ph 8.2, SG 1.023, temp 78, Ammonia 0.25, Nitrate 160, Nitrite 0

12 Nov 15 = ph 8.3, SG 1.029, temp 78, Ammonia 0.25, Nitrate 80, Nitrite 0, Alk 156, Cal 465

4 Dec 15 = ph 8.28, SG 1.029, temp 78, Ammonia 0, Nitrate 80, Nitrite 0, Alk 196, Cal 407

30 Dec 15 = ph 8.1, SG 1.030, temp 76, Ammonia 0.25, Nitrate 10, Nitrite 0, Alk 177, Cal 302, Phos 0.0

Tank was set up 21 Aug 2015 initially and cycled for 2.5 weeks.

Recently added [attempted to replace my lost fish with an Angularis Angel Adult who promptly displayed what looked like Ich,but maybe it was Velvet and died after 10 days in the tank. Refused to eat the whole time. Since his death lost my Foxface and Niger Trigger who were all healthy prior and had no issues even thru the water issues/challenges. Also saw the death of a few green chromis and 2 domino damsels within last 2 weeks. Coral banded shrimp, melenaris wrasse, yellow tailed damsels and numerous hermit crabs and a few turbo snails now remain but recently just lost another foxface and koran angel combo which my wife purchased for me as a Xmas present after 1 week.

At this point am not sure what is going on with the tank. Of note my 20g quarantine tank which I just set up on Xmas day (contains 1x lunare wrasse, 1x Naso tang) are all doing well as well as my 14g BioCube which I just started 11 Dec 15 (six line wrasse x1, o. clownfish x1, pygmy dwarf angel x1). No deaths in either of these since set up. Used filter media from another active tank for Biocube Setup and instant cycle media for my quarantine tank. So at least in those smaller tanks all is well for now!

So guys/gals I am very confused now and perplexed as to my next step. I've never had an "infected" acquarium so far in my years in the hobby (2008) so am trying to figure out what is going on and what my next steps should be from the "experts" and those with more wisdom than myself. My 1st step I think is no more fish and to let the life cycle of whatever it is end/die off. But unclear as to what next? Drain the acquarium and restart with new salt water? Let cycle for a month or so and re-new again? Or maybe get the system professionally serviced [at probably $$$ expense]? I initially suspected my sick Angularis caused this and now with water parameters improved tank was on the mend but not so sure now. Thoughts? Suggestions? Perplexxed.

Pics include 1) Culprit fish 2) Main tank setup prior 3) Added media reactors 4) 14g BioCube 5) Quarantine Setup

 

[boxfishpooalot]

Your sg is all over the place. You NEED to keep it stable at 1.026. Or 35ppt. And why is your sg at 1.030? Thats very high imo. I get worried when mine reaches 1.027 from 1.026.

What are you using to measure sg?

Nitrate has nothing to do with your fish death, its not really toxic.

 

[Daniel62]

Yes, you will need to go fishless for at least 72 days. Also your numbers are all over the place. How do you top off. how do you dose. How do you QT? and for how long.

 

[mdrobc1213]

Your sg is all over the place. You NEED to keep it stable at 1.026. Or 35ppt. And why is your sg at 1.030? Thats very high imo. I get worried when mine reaches 1.027 from 1.026.

What are you using to measure sg?

Nitrate has nothing to do with your fish death, its not really toxic.

Parameters are measured using my Apex Neptune controller for ph and temp and then I have a Hana Handheld SG Electronic monitor to back up the Apex Controller unit which reads conductivity [requiring conversion]. Had been told that the higher SG would help alleviate illness in the tanks by local water supply folks. LFS told me it was at the high end of normal when they looked at my numbers. Otherwise am using API test kit and also Hana Handheld Electronic Color testers for Pho, Nitrite, NH3, Alk, and Ca with a backup Red Sea Nitrate/Phos test kit purchased about a week ago.

I've heard that Nitrate at high levels can cause Nitrate poisoning, no?

Yes, you will need to go fishless for at least 72 days. Also your numbers are all over the place. How do you top off. how do you dose. How do you QT? and for how long.

Also BioCube parameters are currently:

30 Dec = ph 8.4, SG 1.026, temp 76.2, Ammonia 0.25, Nitrate 0, Nitrite 0, Alk 79, Ca 372, Phos 0.36 ppm

Top off with water changes using LFS purchased saline and also mix my own with 35g Tuff Box garbage container using Instant Ocean Salt (mix and settle/aerate for 24-48hrs). Dose by hand and have been using Red Sea NO3/PO4 Management daily to keep things in check since my Nitrate levels out of the tap when I mix are around 80ppm to start. Here is my local tap/faucet water here in AZ readings:

11 Nov = ph 8.8, SG 1.023, temp 82, Ammonia 0.0, Nitrate 80, Nitrite 0 ppm

I have not previously used QT but now as you can see set one up. Parameters are clear bottom, Korella pump and small 15 gal Marineland Hang on glass filter and heater element as pics shows. Last test parameters were:

30 Dec = ph 8.0, SG 1.025, temp 74-75, Ammonia 0.0, Nitrate 20, Nitrite 0 ppm

My Current specimens (Naso tang and lunare wrasse) have been in QT for about a week now. Not sure how long to keep them there. Get varied answers from 1-2 weeks to months from folks. What is best. Fish were treated with a dip prior to being placed in QT for 10mins and then placed in QT. Water was then treated with Copper based additive (Kordon) to prevent disease upon advise of alternate LFS which I know quarantine all of their stock prior to putting in display tank (don't use often as its almost 1.2 hrs roundtrip to my house - worse in rush hour traffic yuk). Discussed problem with them 2 weeks ago when started QT soon afterwards. Why do you suggest 72 days no fish? Was it the Angularis that is causing this all or am I looking at multifactorial issues here? Why are my melanarus wrasse, coral banded shrimp, damsels, and diamond goby in the main tank and hermits still doing okay?

Here are previous posts re: similar issue

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2539184

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2546397

Thanks for the assistance. Really love the hobby and have been moving up to bigger tanks and this one is the biggest but also most problematic since I started in 2008. Guess I don't know everything. :sad2:

 

[snorvich]

. Had been told that the higher SG would help alleviate illness in the tanks by local water supply folks.

Totally incorrect, quite the contrary actually as it does not allow fish to properly osmoregulate.

LFS told me it was at the high end of normal when they looked at my numbers.

Again, incorrect

Otherwise am using API test kit and also Hana Handheld Electronic Color testers for Pho, Nitrite, NH3, Alk, and Ca with a backup Red Sea Nitrate/Phos test kit purchased about a week ago.

I recommend getting some good test kits

I've heard that Nitrate at high levels can cause Nitrate poisoning, no?

At extreme levels, not at your level



Top off with water changes using LFS purchased saline and also mix my own with 35g Tuff Box garbage container using Instant Ocean Salt (mix and settle/aerate for 24-48hrs). Dose by hand and have been using Red Sea NO3/PO4 Management daily to keep things in check since my Nitrate levels out of the tap when I mix are around 80ppm to start. Here is my local tap/faucet water here in AZ readings:

Start making your own RO/DI water and never top off with saline water

11 Nov = ph 8.8, SG 1.023, temp 82, Ammonia 0.0, Nitrate 80, Nitrite 0 ppm

I have not previously used QT but now as you can see set one up. Parameters are clear bottom, Korella pump and small 15 gal Marineland Hang on glass filter and heater element as pics shows. Last test parameters were:

30 Dec = ph 8.0, SG 1.025, temp 74-75, Ammonia 0.0, Nitrate 20, Nitrite 0 ppm

My Current specimens (Naso tang and lunare wrasse) have been in QT for about a week now. Not sure how long to keep them there. Get varied answers from 1-2 weeks to months from folks. What is best.

best is tank transfer followed by 5 weeks observation but from the fish you are trying to keep, I hope your tank is an 8 foot tank or larger

Fish were treated with a dip prior to being placed in QT for 10mins

which is doing nothing

and then placed in QT. Water was then treated with Copper based additive (Kordon) to prevent disease upon advise of alternate LFS which I know quarantine all of their stock prior to putting in display tank

No LFS properly quarantines fish; running a low level of copper masks various parasites and does not prevent disease

(don't use often as its almost 1.2 hrs roundtrip to my house - worse in rush hour traffic yuk). Discussed problem with them 2 weeks ago when started QT soon afterwards. Why do you suggest 72 days no fish? Was it the Angularis that is causing this all or am I looking at multifactorial issues here?

Many factors, some of which I annotated

Why are my melanarus wrasse, coral banded shrimp, damsels, and diamond goby in the main tank and hermits still doing okay?

Here are previous posts re: similar issue


Thanks for the assistance. Really love the hobby and have been moving up to bigger tanks and this one is the biggest but also most problematic since I started in 2008. Guess I don't know everything. :sad2:

Tank size? You are trying to keep fish which require a large tank My sense is you are trying to do too much, way too quickly, and depending on the advice of LFS that is unreliable. Stop buying fish, read a lot more about good practices, and back off from all of the automation

 

[A.Astore]

Dont know if someone else said it here but ammonia needs to be ZERO, as in a 0 with no other numbers, except maybe a few zeros, before you put fish in. NiTRITEs need to be quite the same. Take the Naso back, your tank is not nearly big enough for that fish. It sounds as if you need to pump the brakes, hard. I counted 19 fish (assuming that by the word "few" you meant 3 and "damselS" you meant 2) between deaths and QT tanks. Also, what is the substrate of your aquarium? From the picture it looks like gravel. If thats the case, Im going to say we found your nitrate culprit. You need to switch that out for sand yesterday. Hope it all works out for you!

 

[snorvich]

Dont know if someone else said it here but ammonia needs to be ZERO, as in a 0 with no other numbers, except maybe a few zeros, before you put fish in.

absolutely

First time, I did not see pictures, but your tank is way too small for the fish being attempted. As your prior thread readers advised, SLOW DOWN, and definitely stop buying fish. Their answers were excellent advice. Are you posting again hoping for different advice????

 

[BrokenSpoke]

Top off with water changes using LFS purchased saline and also mix my own with 35g Tuff Box garbage container using Instant Ocean Salt (mix and settle/aerate for 24-48hrs)

If I read this correctly this would explain why your specific gravity is all over the place. When water evaporates from your tank the salt is left behind, For that reason top off water, water used to replace that which has evaporated, you be plain RO/DI water. If you are using saline, or mixed saltwater, for you are adding additional salt every time you top off your tank and this additional salt is causing the SG swings.

 

[boxfishpooalot]

Parameters are measured using my Apex Neptune controller for ph and temp and then I have a Hana Handheld SG Electronic monitor to back up the Apex Controller unit which reads conductivity [requiring conversion]. Had been told that the higher SG would help alleviate illness in the tanks by local water supply folks. LFS told me it was at the high end of normal when they looked at my numbers. Otherwise am using API test kit and also Hana Handheld Electronic Color testers for Pho, Nitrite, NH3, Alk, and Ca with a backup Red Sea Nitrate/Phos test kit purchased about a week ago.

I've heard that Nitrate at high levels can cause Nitrate poisoning, no?


Also BioCube parameters are currently:

30 Dec = ph 8.4, SG 1.026, temp 76.2, Ammonia 0.25, Nitrate 0, Nitrite 0, Alk 79, Ca 372, Phos 0.36 ppm

Top off with water changes using LFS purchased saline and also mix my own with 35g Tuff Box garbage container using Instant Ocean Salt (mix and settle/aerate for 24-48hrs). Dose by hand and have been using Red Sea NO3/PO4 Management daily to keep things in check since my Nitrate levels out of the tap when I mix are around 80ppm to start. Here is my local tap/faucet water here in AZ readings:

11 Nov = ph 8.8, SG 1.023, temp 82, Ammonia 0.0, Nitrate 80, Nitrite 0 ppm

I have not previously used QT but now as you can see set one up. Parameters are clear bottom, Korella pump and small 15 gal Marineland Hang on glass filter and heater element as pics shows. Last test parameters were:

30 Dec = ph 8.0, SG 1.025, temp 74-75, Ammonia 0.0, Nitrate 20, Nitrite 0 ppm

My Current specimens (Naso tang and lunare wrasse) have been in QT for about a week now. Not sure how long to keep them there. Get varied answers from 1-2 weeks to months from folks. What is best. Fish were treated with a dip prior to being placed in QT for 10mins and then placed in QT. Water was then treated with Copper based additive (Kordon) to prevent disease upon advise of alternate LFS which I know quarantine all of their stock prior to putting in display tank (don't use often as its almost 1.2 hrs roundtrip to my house - worse in rush hour traffic yuk). Discussed problem with them 2 weeks ago when started QT soon afterwards. Why do you suggest 72 days no fish? Was it the Angularis that is causing this all or am I looking at multifactorial issues here? Why are my melanarus wrasse, coral banded shrimp, damsels, and diamond goby in the main tank and hermits still doing okay?

Here are previous posts re: similar issue

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2539184

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2546397

Thanks for the assistance. Really love the hobby and have been moving up to bigger tanks and this one is the biggest but also most problematic since I started in 2008. Guess I don't know everything. :sad2:

Dont believe what your apex conductvity reads. Its one of the most pain in the aaa ive seen in this hobby ever. Get a refractometer or nist certified glass hydrometer.

 

[Reef Frog]

Did you QT successfully all of the fish you lost? Maybe I missed it.

Abrupt salinity changes from LFS water (typically 1.017 or so) to reef water at 1.026, even with drip acclimation, can be highly stressful. QT allows you to slow this process down. And you chose some rather challenging fish for a new tank, and a lot of them. And your tank's ability to process ammonia may not have been up to snuff yet to handle the new fish and the associated waste.

Also, you didn't say if you ruled out disease or parasites or if the fish are for you. Good luck going foreword.

 

[Shanzao]

I have heard that 1.022 is a good range for reducing ich. I personally would lower your range

 

[thegrun]

I have heard that 1.022 is a good range for reducing ich. I personally would lower your range

You heard wrong. 1.022 will do absolutely nothing to reduce ich, you need to drop the salinity to 1.0085 to do that, which is not a good salinity to keep a tank at on a regular basis. 1.026 is close to the ocean's salinity and where you should strive to keep your tank's salinity at.

 

[Shanzao]

I normally keep mine at 1.025. "They say a lot" I had ich once on my regal tang I fed it garlic and it went. Then I read today Garlic is very bad as well! The forever changing science

 

[snorvich]

I have heard that 1.022 is a good range for reducing ich. I personally would lower your range

Not correct. Ich (most but not all strains) is treated at 1.008/1.009; there is at least one strain that is not affected by hyposalinity.

 

[Shanzao]

Not correct. Ich (most but not all strains) is treated at 1.008/1.009; there is at least one strain that is not affected by hyposalinity.

Maybe I heard 1.022 was good at reducing the chance of infection or something, not curing it. Either way I dont listen to things like this that are vastly different to the real world ocean. I think it is why I was told LFS keep it low (it was 7 years or so ago) I do know that the ranges mentioned here are way too high imo

 

[snorvich]

Maybe I heard 1.022 was good at reducing the chance of infection or something, not curing it. Either way I dont listen to things like this that are vastly different to the real world ocean. I think it is why I was told LFS keep it low (it was 7 years or so ago) I do know that the ranges mentioned here are way too high imo

LFS keep it low to save on salt. Natural Sea Water is 1.026 (apx) so that is what fish have biologically adapted to.

 

[Shanzao]

LFS keep it low to save on salt. Natural Sea Water is 1.026 (apx) so that is what fish have biologically adapted to.

Thanks Always Money Money Money!!! Maybe they should follow the advice they so willingly give out. Spend Spend Spend!!! Its very sad actually. I love these animals and they allow these alien conditions for extra profit"!

 

[BrianKC]

...
Here is my local tap/faucet water here in AZ readings:

11 Nov = ph 8.8, SG 1.023, temp 82, Ammonia 0.0, Nitrate 80, Nitrite 0 ppm
...

I'm not quite following...is 1.023 what you're reading out of the tap, or after you mix?

 

[mdrobc1213]

Dont believe what your apex conductvity reads. Its one of the most pain in the aaa ive seen in this hobby ever. Get a refractometer or nist certified glass hydrometer.

Yes the Apex conductivity is difficult to read at best. Had to find a chart online to give it a rough comparison and then went to my electronic Hana reader. Hydrometer is the gold standard as the ones I used to use (hang on glass) did fluctuate often. Thanks.

Did you QT successfully all of the fish you lost? Maybe I missed it.

Abrupt salinity changes from LFS water (typically 1.017 or so) to reef water at 1.026, even with drip acclimation, can be highly stressful. QT allows you to slow this process down. And you chose some rather challenging fish for a new tank, and a lot of them. And your tank's ability to process ammonia may not have been up to snuff yet to handle the new fish and the associated waste.

Also, you didn't say if you ruled out disease or parasites or if the fish are for you. Good luck going foreword.

No I did NOT quarantine fish previously. Had not really done it in my previous tanks (smaller ones). Am doing that now though. I have set up a 20g one in my garage and it is a bare glass bottomed set up as mentioned. I do always drip acclimate in my main tank for 1-2 hrs before adding. I was doing okay initially 1st 30-45 days but then tank crashed and my LFS said I was overfeeding thus the high nitrates and basically overloaded the fledgling bio filter. Bought some Nitromax to help and took out 1/2 my bioballs...bad mistake as it didn't decrease nitrate and ammonia but cut my bio bacteria load in 1/2 and overstressed everything. More deaths. Added bioballs back in mid-end of Oct and things started to stabilize somewhat.

Of note to all. I did not ADD all of these fish at once! Nor was I attempting to stock the tank with so many fishes. These were purchased on a continuum to replace deaths and as my LFS tried to help me stabilize the tank so for example the death of a Kole Tang and tiny Juvenile Passer were followed weeks later by another tang and the Angularis once things looked to hopefully trend/stabilize upward.

I'm not quite following...is 1.023 what you're reading out of the tap, or after you mix?

I did a read out of the tap to see what the water was looking like before I would mix it and then comparing it to what I was getting in the tank afterwards. There is a lot of commercial gardening and planting near where I live and increased fertilized use thus Nitrate is higher out of the tap according to my water supply co and also LFS.

If I read this correctly this would explain why your specific gravity is all over the place. When water evaporates from your tank the salt is left behind, For that reason top off water, water used to replace that which has evaporated, you be plain RO/DI water. If you are using saline, or mixed saltwater, for you are adding additional salt every time you top off your tank and this additional salt is causing the SG swings.

Was not doing fresh water top offs but 5-10% water changes instead. Got it.

First time, I did not see pictures, but your tank is way too small for the fish being attempted. As your prior thread readers advised, SLOW DOWN, and definitely stop buying fish. Their answers were excellent advice. Are you posting again hoping for different advice????

Copy the slow down portion. Tank is a 160gallon with another 30-40 gallon add on sump. Other tank is 14g Biocube. Lights are Hydra 26 LEDs on regional weather setting and around 45% coral acclimation program as I have a few green star polyps in tank and a Kenya tree.

Again was NOT trying to add all of these to tank at once and most were juveniles. Only angularis angel was adult when purchased and was largest fish introduced.

Dont know if someone else said it here but ammonia needs to be ZERO, as in a 0 with no other numbers, except maybe a few zeros, before you put fish in. NiTRITEs need to be quite the same. Take the Naso back, your tank is not nearly big enough for that fish. It sounds as if you need to pump the brakes, hard. I counted 19 fish (assuming that by the word "few" you meant 3 and "damselS" you meant 2) between deaths and QT tanks. Also, what is the substrate of your aquarium? From the picture it looks like gravel. If thats the case, Im going to say we found your nitrate culprit. You need to switch that out for sand yesterday. Hope it all works out for you!

Deep sand bed is bottom not gravel. Its black/white mixed Fuji sand. Purchased as Live sand from LFS in packages and about 80 lbs worth added I believe at set up.

Tank size? You are trying to keep fish which require a large tank My sense is you are trying to do too much, way too quickly, and depending on the advice of LFS that is unreliable. Stop buying fish, read a lot more about good practices, and back off from all of the automation

See above. And what references do you suggest. Been using the Conscientious Marine Aquarists since 2008 when I started the hobby. Anything new as realize its an older book. Automation? I find the Neptune is very good piece of equipment much better than the Digital Aquatics one. Lots of folks use it and highly recommended.

Otherwise thanks all for the advise. Working to get saline down now and get parameters in line. Current fish in Quarantine tank (Juvenile Naso - small and med lunare wrasse) are doing well as are Biocube inhabitants (tiny occelaris, pygmy angel and six line).

 

[BrianKC]

Continuing Tank problems - Fish demises

I really question the device you're using to test specific gravity. If you're getting 1.023 out of the tap, your city is either piping seawater right to your house, or your readings are incorrect. Also to expand on the point Broken makes...even if you're just doing WCs and no top off, you're increasing salinity. Imagine 0.5 gallons of water evaporates. That leaves behind 0.5 gallons worth of salt. Then you take out 10 gallons in your WC, then add 10.5 gallons of saltwater at normal strength to get the tank back to full. You now have an extra 0.5 gallons of salt. Do this several times and you'll have gallons worth of extra salt..you should top off every day (or continuously, using your fancy Apex (I'm jealous!)). At minimum, you should top off with RODI before doing your water change so you're replacing 1.025 water with 1.025 water.