Copper as a prophylactic in QT?

[Jimbob.]

Hi all,

As the title says, is this a good idea?

I've read that a 7 day treatment at 0.25mg in the first week followed by a 5 day treatment the week ending the QT is the best method of ensuring a completely ich/WS free fish.

I always thought that treatment on a visual basis i.e evidence of infection was the best way to go?

 

[b0bab0ey]

Hi all,

As the title says, is this a good idea?

I've read that a 7 day treatment at 0.25mg in the first week followed by a 5 day treatment the week ending the QT is the best method of ensuring a completely ich/WS free fish.

I always thought that treatment on a visual basis i.e evidence of infection was the best way to go?

Assuming you would treat with Cupramine, 0.35ppm is the minimum level required to eradicate Ich. And IMO you need to keep it at 0.35 for at least 4 weeks. I've never understood the point of maintaining "therapeutic levels" below 0.35 if that's the minimum threshold required to kill Ich.

 

[snorvich]

Hi all,

As the title says, is this a good idea?

I've read that a 7 day treatment at 0.25mg in the first week followed by a 5 day treatment the week ending the QT is the best method of ensuring a completely ich/WS free fish.

I always thought that treatment on a visual basis i.e evidence of infection was the best way to go?

No and No. Visual inspection for evidence of ich is not effective. As mentioned above, 4 weeks at 0.35 - 0.50 plus inspection is the way to go.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I agree with both the above; and, unfortunately, guaranteed 100% success just isn't possible.

 

[sandwi54]

+1 to all of the above posts. Often tomonts reside in the gills of a healthy fish and it does not show any external spots, which fool the hobbyist into thinking that the fish doesn't have ich, when the gills are loaded with them.

Also agreed with the minimum 0.35ppm level for four weeks. If you are gonna do a treatment, do it for four weeks since 28 days is the average cycle time at tropical temperature.

 

[tmz]

I prefer to use the tank transfer method as a preventative treatment for ich. Tank transfer requires no meds and takes just 12 days. Ammonia is easy to manage as the fish only stays in each tank for 3 days and without meds in the water ammonia detoxifiers can be used if needed. Once that's done the fish go into a cylced qt tank for extended observation and treatment if needed for other maladies that might show up.

 

[snorvich]

I prefer to use the tank transfer method as a preventative treatment for ich. Tank transfer requires no meds and takes just 12 days. Ammonia is easy to manage as the fish only stays in each tank for 3 days and without meds in the water ammonia detoxifiers can be used if needed. Once that's done the fish go into a cylced qt tank for extended observation and treatment if needed for other maladies that might show up.

I totally agree. However that was not the question posed by the OP. Tank transfer is vastly superior to copper and especially hyposalinity.

 

[tmz]

I know the OP didn't ask; but did ask if copper was a "good idea" or whether obvservation only was more the norm. I inferred an interest in discussing alternatives. So, I thought I'd point out another option which is med free.
I still think the jury is out on sensitivity to copper ,even bound copper with some individual specimens. Over/under dosing seems a little too common for unpracticed aquarists who use it only occasionally, so I avoid recommending it or using it when I can. I have used it many times in years past with lethal results to ich and velvet and prophylactically without discernible harm, though, but I'm careful to measure it and keep other water parameters in good shape. . I think copper as bound copper or copper sulfate is superior to hyposalinity in terms of reliable lethality to the target organisms when used at thrapeutic levels and will if not overdosed almost never harm most fish at least not short term.

 

[snorvich]

I know the OP didn't ask; but did ask if copper was a "good idea" or whether obvservation only was more the norm. I inferred an interest in discussing alternatives. So, I thought I'd point out another option which is med free.
I still think the jury is out on sensitivity to copper ,even bound copper with some individual specimens. Over/under dosing seems a little too common for unpracticed aquarists who use it only occasionally, so I avoid recommending it or using it when I can. I have used it many times in years past with lethal results to ich and velvet and prophylactically without discernible harm, though, but I'm careful to measure it and keep other water parameters in good shape. . I think copper as bound copper or copper sulfate is superior to hyposalinity in terms of reliable lethality to the target organisms when used at thrapeutic levels and will if not overdosed almost never harm most fish at least not short term.

We agree totally.

 

[Jimbob.]

Thank you for the advice. The reason i asked was because copper is a poisonous treatment to both parasite and fish, and not all fish carry the parasite.

I always assumed that copper was best? I've heard about the transfer method but don't know too much about it, can anyone advise me on the basics?

I want to do everything right the second time around.

 

[tmz]

Thank you for the advice. The reason i asked was because copper is a poisonous treatment to both parasite and fish, and not all fish carry the parasite.

I always assumed that copper was best? I've heard about the transfer method but don't know too much about it, can anyone advise me on the basics?

I want to do everything right the second time around.

This is a recent post of mine from another thread with some tank tranfer detail:

Not to beat a dead horse but I am really happy with tank transfer .

I've tried the other methods(copper and hypo) and avoided this one thinking it too difficult or stressful. It's neither.It may not be everyone's choice and perhaps there are better methods but I like it.
2 small tanks are used( 10 or 20 gallon for larger fish) .Filled with new salt water aerated overnight at an sg a point or two lower than the bag water and temp adjusted. The tanks are simple and bare with an airstone ,small hob filter , a heater and some pvc for resting /hiding spots.No ammonia builds up in the 72 hour stay with light to moderate feeding ,ime but since the water is med free I can and do add an ammonia detoxifier ,ie Ammo lock by api; just in case.Other detoxifiers are fine are fine too. For wrasses and others that need sand to bury in a disposable bowl of sand is provided.
After 72 hours the tank is taken down and drained. Fish are gently captured which is easy in two to 3 inches of water in a bare tank and moved to a new tank with new water which matches the tank they left.. The drained tank and equipment are thoroughly dried to kill any ich including cysts and set up for the 3rd stay.

N o meds; no ammonia worries, although I do monitor it; it's relatively quick 12 days,and; most importantly, no ich.

After the 4 transfers , I have introduced fish into the main system relying on my observation skills during the 4 72 hour periods for any other illnesses. This has been fine for the last 8 or so specimens I've qt'd and treated this way.
Recently,however, I decided to improve the routine by adding a cylced 30 gallon tank and placing the fish there for an additional 2 weeks for further observation and preventative prazi pro treatment. The prazi is mostly for flukes which can be hard to detect in the early weeks . It may also help any internal parasites as well and as far as I know there are no sensitivity issue. The extra qt time should be adequate for anything else to emerge and provides a nce environment for non competitive feeding.
I just moved three new tiera, ie resplendent anthias in there after tank transfer in 10 gallon tanks.

 

[Jimbob.]

I agree with both the above; and, unfortunately, guaranteed 100% success just isn't possible.

If it isn't 100% then what is the point?

I got wiped out on my first tank, i took a risk and drew the short straw, i am back with a much bigger tank, top of the range equipment and much greater knowledge.

Is it worth the effort if its not 100% guaranteed? I am determined to be as disease free as i can, this includes going right down to QT of corals and inverts...

This is a recent post of mine from another thread with some tank tranfer detail:

Not to beat a dead horse but I am really happy with tank transfer .

I've tried the other methods(copper and hypo) and avoided this one thinking it too difficult or stressful. It's neither.It may not be everyone's choice and perhaps there are better methods but I like it.
2 small tanks are used( 10 or 20 gallon for larger fish) .Filled with new salt water aerated overnight at an sg a point or two lower than the bag water and temp adjusted. The tanks are simple and bare with an airstone ,small hob filter , a heater and some pvc for resting /hiding spots.No ammonia builds up in the 72 hour stay with light to moderate feeding ,ime but since the water is med free I can and do add an ammonia detoxifier ,ie Ammo lock by api; just in case.Other detoxifiers are fine are fine too. For wrasses and others that need sand to bury in a disposable bowl of sand is provided.
After 72 hours the tank is taken down and drained. Fish are gently captured which is easy in two to 3 inches of water in a bare tank and moved to a new tank with new water which matches the tank they left.. The drained tank and equipment are thoroughly dried to kill any ich including cysts and set up for the 3rd stay.

N o meds; no ammonia worries, although I do monitor it; it's relatively quick 12 days,and; most importantly, no ich.

After the 4 transfers , I have introduced fish into the main system relying on my observation skills during the 4 72 hour periods for any other illnesses. This has been fine for the last 8 or so specimens I've qt'd and treated this way.
Recently,however, I decided to improve the routine by adding a cylced 30 gallon tank and placing the fish there for an additional 2 weeks for further observation and preventative prazi pro treatment. The prazi is mostly for flukes which can be hard to detect in the early weeks . It may also help any internal parasites as well and as far as I know there are no sensitivity issue. The extra qt time should be adequate for anything else to emerge and provides a nce environment for non competitive feeding.
I just moved three new tiera, ie resplendent anthias in there after tank transfer in 10 gallon tanks.

It sounds fine in theory, but it seems to me, and please do not take offence, that you follow this method and then hope for the best.

It sounds fantastic, simple and its very short term, but from my own research, tank transfer seems to be nowhere near as readily used as hypo or copper, now the reason for this could be that people need multiple tanks, but as you said, tanks do not need to be huge because of the space of time.

I just want an effective treatment, time isn't an issue, as if something is worth doing, its worth waiting for.