copperbanded butterfly in qt

[Drewpy]

i recieved a copperbanded butterfly that had a few ick spots on one of it's fins. It has been it quarantine for 9 days now and is treated with seachem cupramine. partial water changes everyday and copper testing...

At first the fish would eat mysis, but now the fish has stopped eating--at least in front of me...

i have tried garlic and some other flavor stuff with no help...
How long should the fish stay in qt--- without starving--- 2 weeks is the minimum treatment according to the label... And i believe three or four weeks would be better--but again the fish is not eating, either b/c of the stress of the smaller tank and/or the medicine...

All the spots have dropped off the fish, and it is very active... skiddish of me but active...

Anyone with experience with cupramine? I was thinking i may try lowering the dosage slightly....

 

[leebca]

Are you closely monitoring the copper content? You should not go below a reading of 0.5 in my opinion, although others have had success at 0.3 concentrations. No matter what, with the Copperband Butterflyfish you should not exceed 0.65 ppm copper by the Seachem Copper Test kit.

If the copper is above the above number, the fish may be put-off from feeding. But I have found, more times than not, that the sick fish has got other problems you might not be able to handle. That is the problem with knowingly obtaining/receiving a sick fish -- what you see ISN'T what you get. You might see spots, but what else is wrong? Any disease weakens the fish and makes it easier for secondary problems.

Copperbands are finicky. Some do well, some ignore food. And some, unfortunately start eating and then stop, seemingly preferring death to incarceration.

Lastly, Copperbands will go off feed for a variety of 'small' reasons including but not limited to: water quality (even small spikes of ammonia or nitrites are intolerable sometimes), environment, and other stresses.

Copperbands prefer pods. If you have a refugium with pods (AND your display/tank is disease-free) harvest some and offer live pods. Alternatively, offer live brine shrimp of the size suitable for it to see and yet swallow (size CAN make a difference! ) If it is tempted to eat and your copper is no higher than 0.5, then progress to gut-loaded brine shrimp and some mysis. Make sure all frozen foods are the freshest you can obtain. Don't use anything your LFS or food source has had more than 2 months in their freezer.

Once, I got a CBB to eat by beginning to feed it live Aiptasia I culture just for that purpose.

See this for more nutrition recommendations:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=785228

Two weeks is the treatment. BUT, after treatment is over, you need to hold the fish in quarantine another 4 weeks to verify that your treatment was successful.

Good luck Drewpy! :rollface:

 

[Drewpy]

thanks a lot...
the tank is free of ick and i will hunt for pods in the refugium...

Did a very large but very slow water change,matching ph and temperature with a probe and salinity w/ a refractometer in case my tests for ammonia and nitrite are inaccurate...

copper tests have held steady at .05 according to the reading on the seachem test kit... I am noticing that i have to dose a little more then they say to match the reference and color chart...
the level is certainly lower .6 and higher then .4 (the color chart is a pain the @$$)

Again, everything i see is okay-- fins, color, activity... and it ate for the first few days... I didn't notice the ick until about the second day i had it...

It does have a weird twitch though every so often... jerking it's head to the side. Is that a symptom of something? I am just waiting for it starting swearing simultaneously next-- can fish have turrets? lol

 

[leebca]

A color matching system which is gradient oriented, like the sliding scale of the Seachem copper test kit is one of the industries best comparative systems available. Having said that, I agree. It's a PITA to use!

I find it works better for me when I remove my glasses. You don't want to see the concentration and you don't want to see any lines (until AFTER the color is matched). A nice 'blur' of color makes for the best comparison. If you would like to 'cheat' you can also use the Salifert copper test kit. It is easier to read, IMHO and its readings are a little bit higher than the Seachem test kit, I have found (in general). Unfortunately the Salifert test kit jumps from 0.5 to 1.0 ppm copper and you don't get the divisions in between --- that is what makes the sliding scale much more useful, albeit a PITA.

I've seen that 'wagging' feature in many fish, but mostly Butterflyfishes and angelfishes. This feature is most noticeable when the fish is just starting out to eat offered foods and occurs when the fish actually took something into its mouth and 'deciding' whether or not to swallow the food.

But when this happens without the food scenario, it is usually a sign of a gill irritation. That just isn't necessarily the Marine Ich or disease. Butterflyfishes have the same reaction to water quality issues. They are often hard to please in this department.

If you sit in front of the QT and put your face up to about 8 inches from the tank, does the fish eventually swim out to look at you (it may take up to 10 minutes)? or does it stay hidden in the rear or behind cover?

:thumbsup:

 

[Drewpy]

it has no problem swimming in front of me (that's how i saw th ick) --- and seems to have a lot personality--- and stubburness about not eating!!!

 

[Drewpy]

it is skiddish when i put my hand over the tank to feed... maybe i can be more stealth about doing that...

it's just at first it would almost come and get the food from me....

 

[TerryB]

Stress can interupt feeding behaviors and copper is a stressor. I would try some frozen blood worms. Copperbands love worms. Hikari makes some great frozen foods. Twitching indicates irritation. It may be wise to make a large water change using water that is dosed with Cupramine. Personally, I don't recommend copper often. I prefer hyposalinity for treating ich. If all the spots were on one fin, I would suspect lymphocystis rather than ich. Ich would probably appear in several locations on the fish including all the fins.

Terry B

 

[Drewpy]

The large (80%) water change was done today over about an hour and cupramine re-dosed to .5

lymphocystis... hmm, i don't think so... but i am not an expert.

I say no b/c i have had a massive infestation of ick before and went through removing it from my display-- so i am very familiar with ick...
the spots, i looked just now, are not all gone as i thought before

less of them but still maybe 2 or 3 left from an original total of 4 or 5 on the front right fin... They are located in the middle of the fin. Hard to see b/c i the little bugger swims around so much.

do you have a link of good lymphocystis pictures?

 

[Drewpy]

http://www.fishbase.org/Diseases/DispicSummary.cfm?pic=LymphoD8.jpg&notcom=

this was the best pic i could find of lymphocystis

http://www.fishbase.org/Diseases/DispicSummary.cfm?pic=LymphoD8.jpg&notcom=

the spots on the copperbanded are not that large... very small actually...
If the spots do not go away in the week it may be lymphocystis i would think-- since copper would not treat a virus, right?

The only other medicine i have that claims to treat viral infections is seacheam paraguard---- but i doubt anything treats viruses effectively...

 

[Drewpy]

doubel post....grr

 

[Drewpy]

Here is a picture--- the best i could do anyway---

The spots are small and only noticable when the light shines through the fin... The close up shows the spots-- blurry but they are there...

Leebca or anyone:

I also have a small 20 second Quicktime video if you would like to look at it to see if the fish is acting normal... I can send it via email... Acts like a fish to me but? and after the water change it seems to not be jerking it head anymore but i wonder if it is breathing too rapidly?
Thanks for the help guys!

 

[Drewpy]

well the fish is doing well... picking at food a little. But it's the 14th day of treatment and the spots seem worse...

So although it does not look 100% like the pictures of lymphocystis i can find on thread searchs... It may just be a mild case i guess...

I am discontinuing the cupramine, running carbon to rid the tank of it, and concentrating on feeding and nutrition now.

Thanks for the help--- i had never even heard of lymphocystis-- so hopefully i have changed treatments in time.