Coral death from base up - causes?

Doubledown

Active member
I have 2 colonies, a Millipora and a Natsuta(sp?), that are dying from the base up.

The branches are fully colored with excellent PE, but the bases are starting to die off and turn white.

I had heard that phosphate could be an issue, any other causes?

Last tests (about 2 weeks ago)
Ca 390
Alk 9.5
Mg 1250

I did not test for PO4 at the time. I have not had any ammonia and last test for Nitrate showed up as minimal. There is around 8000 gph circulation in a 180 so flow shouldn't be an issue.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Chris
 
Base up would lead me to water quality...Tips back would lean me toward lighting.

It's all about water quality & stability IME. Phosphates, Nitrates, steady alk and Ca levels.

One big dip in alkalinity and I've watched entire colonies die. Run your tests again.
 
Thanks Mike.

the Milli colonie is new (about a week and a half in tank) while the other is about a month in tank (and colored up nicely since going in). Not sure if that matters though.

Thanks
 
Chris,
Rnice lost about 75% of his corals since the frag swap....he thinks one coral touched another, it RTN'd, the skin got into the PH and sent it everywhere and wham.....RTN everywhere....from the bottom up....he checked everything, all parameters and found nothing out of whack.....i have 8 of his colonies in a quaratine at my house now....since last thursday, 4 have died....4 are going strong....he has yet to figure out why.....

i hope you can solve it.....let us know what you come up with.

Oh yeah, his tank is 5yrs running and this is the 1st time some thing of this nature has happened! or better yet a coral dying from RTN!

he's a stickler on his tank, let me tell you!

RK
 
Re: Coral death from base up - causes?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6846665#post6846665 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Doubledown
I have 2 colonies, a Millipora and a Natsuta(sp?), that are dying from the base up.

The branches are fully colored with excellent PE, but the bases are starting to die off and turn white.

I had heard that phosphate could be an issue, any other causes?

Last tests (about 2 weeks ago)
Ca 390
Alk 9.5
Mg 1250

I did not test for PO4 at the time. I have not had any ammonia and last test for Nitrate showed up as minimal. There is around 8000 gph circulation in a 180 so flow shouldn't be an issue.

Any help would be appreciated.

Excuse the novice question but is there ever such a thing as too much circulation? The most that was ever recommended to me was 20gph x the tank volume. Many others recommended less. Anyone know?

Thanks
Chris
 
Something happend with the above format? Here is the repost:

Excuse the novice question but is there ever such a thing as too much circulation? The most that was ever recommended to me was 20gph x the tank volume. Many others recommended less. Anyone know?
 
I have probably 50x or 60x flow in my system. So no, I really don't think there is such a thing as too much, unless you get extreme of course.

A researcher tried to do a study once to see how much water passed by a square meter of a reef. It was on the order of 10's of thousands of gallons an hour. Not that comparing a reef to our water boxes is even close...but just to give scale.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6847924#post6847924 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mhurley
Who is Rnice?

Rob Nice from New Lennox....he has posted some....but not much

he was at the swap with me....4 of us showed up.

has a 75g full SPS
 
Hmm...what's his user name? I looked up rnice and Rob Nice and got nothing. I'm just trying to figure out if I bought anything from him.
 
Nothing wrong with the frags I picked up. In fact most of those are doing very well. It is isolated to these 2 colonies right now and has been a slow process (not RTN).

I believe Mike to be correct, but I do not know what parameter is out of whack water wise. This is the same thing that happened about 5 months ago when I moved in. Same pattern of recession and death (I lost everything then). I wonder if it is my house water. I use a Kent RODI unit for purification, but my TDS meter always reads high. I fear that maybe some sort of heavy metal is getting past the filters and making into my tank water. Maybe I should get one of those chemi-mats or polyfilter pads and leave them soak in the different tanks/tubs to see what colors I get.

I am due for a wholesale filter change anyway, so that and the full spectrum of tank tests is on the schedule tonight.

Thanks all, keep the suggestions coming.


p.s. Mike - could you hit up Jose with this one - he's about the most knowlegable chemistry guy/sps guru around and if he doesn't know I am in deep trouble.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6848148#post6848148 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mhurley
Hmm...what's his user name? I looked up rnice and Rob Nice and got nothing. I'm just trying to figure out if I bought anything from him.

he had the blue torts only.

rnice2 is the RC name.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6848478#post6848478 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Doubledown
I believe Mike to be correct, but I do not know what parameter is out of whack water wise.
I wonder if it is my house water. I use a Kent RODI unit for purification, but my TDS meter always reads high.
I am due for a wholesale filter change anyway, so that and the full spectrum of tank tests is on the schedule tonight.

p.s. Mike - could you hit up Jose with this one - he's about the most knowlegable chemistry guy/sps guru around and if he doesn't know I am in deep trouble.

Well... Umm... I do not know! :D

Kidding aside. This symptoms can occur for many and some times opposing reasons (too much or too little light, poor water conditions or high quality water conditions as an example) so it is difficult to really asses the causes.
The most usual stuff is phosphate, starvation, infection or sudden change in water conditions or chemical attack.
Phosphate uptake is a slow and long term process, as the coral grows uptakes phosphate which mostly stunts growth and it is usually noticeable as the base of the coral starts turning deep green at the base before receding.
Because your frags are new I doubt Phosphate.
Starvation is also usually a long term process, the corals may appear well for months and all in a sudden the tissue starts pealing from the skeleton (note the difference with bleaching or recession) so I also have to discard starvation.
Infection is a real possibility if the frags were recently cut under not so hygienic conditions and subject to suboptimal water conditions in the bag. Usually the base or cut part is the one infected. Infection is a real possibility.
In my experience most of what we do for sickness (Fresh water baths, Iodine baths, coral dips) are much for prevention rather than cure as I have never been able to cure it.
Some try covering the died portion with CA glue etc. but I think it just adds to the stress. If you have a Q tank I would take them there and you have two options IMO, keep using a turkey baster to blow off any accumulation of mucus in the affected area and hope for the best (do it in a Q tank as the floating mucus may infect other corals). Alternatively cut the healthy portion and leave it to get stronger before mounting it.
Environmental change is another possibility. These frags have been cut, taken out and in the water, transported in bags subject to temperature and quality changes etc. Note that transferring a coral adjusted to bad water conditions to better water conditions can be as shocking as the other way around so you may see perfect conditions in your tank but if they were not in perfect water before that could also create a shock.
For environmental stress the best is to move them to a lower light area or a deeper portion of the tank (Hope they are not being blasted by 400 watt MH bulbs) and try to increase your ORP as much as possible up to 425 mV preferably with Ozone and not Iodine. Keep the water well Oxygenated.
If the frags were recently mounted using CA glue, I have sometimes noticed that if too much is used the vapors of the CA may damage the coral tissue around the base. In this case just keep the good flow, bast the corals and keep the area clean to prevent infection.
That's about it. Sorry but there is no sure solution in these cases. I have seen two frags cut the same way at the same time from the same colony set next to each other and one flourish and the other bleaches and die for no apparent reason.

Regarding your RO/DI there is only two reasons why you have TDS in the outlet. Bad meter or bad filters.

Good Luck!
Jose
 
Thanks Jose.

I took the 2 affected colonies out of the tank and gave them a complete inspection for pests. The Natsuta has lost a branch (I removed) and has 2 acro crabs living in it. The Millie showed continued recession. I did not find any evidence of any known pest (acro FW, redbugs, nudis) on either. The only thing I did note was a couple of clumps of sand that had accumulated in the mucus of the dying tissues.

I reran tests and came up with:
Ca 360
Alk 8.0
Mg 1050
PO4 - Undetectable (tested both the tank and the makeup water)

All a little low, so I am correcting the Ca first and getting the others in line as well (bumping up the output of the CA reactor, increasing stir time on the Kalk reactor) ((not sure how to raise the Mg level - waterchange?)).

Polyps are out fully and color on the rest of the colony is good, just the base (and starting to go higher).

Any other suggestions?

Thanks
Chris
 
If you are using a Calcium and/or a Nielsen (Kalk) reactor and you increase their output you will be increasing Calcium and Alkalinity. Watch your Alkalinity in this case, not the Calcium because by the time the Calcium reaches only 380 your Alkalinity will reach almost 11 (20 ppm Ca for every 2.8 dKh of Alkalinity increase using reactors). Once Alkalinity is at that level you may need Calcium chloride to increase the Calcium from the 380 level to the 420 level.
For magnesium I prefer to use a comercial product like Kent Tech-M but if none its at hand you can use Epsom Salts, just do not stop normal water changes as you may need a lot of it increasing your Sulphates.

On the recesion it is a concern that the sliming continue which may indicate infection. If the slime is more like the tissue itself turning a brownish jelly it could be a protozoan infection and the whole colony can be gone in a day or two all in a sudden (by the way very contagious so do not blow it off inside the main tank). Watch it closely, if it starts advancing faster, does not stop or continue the sliming, frag it in three or more pieces if the size allow so to increase the chances of at least one survival.
 
Thanks again. Looked in on the corals this am and the recession is increasing. Sadly, I do not believe these 2 will make it.

Last resort is to frag and hope one of them survives.
 
What a drag. I've not had luck saving an RTN or STN victim and have tried all the methods suggested above.

Save them acro crabs! Do you have another thriving acro? I've been so looking for those guys and still don't have any. Find another host for the little guys if you can!
 
My read on this is that the parms are a bit low, and that change probably PO'd the frags. Get the Ca and Alk up......Ca you can change rapidly via calcium chloride additions (I've moved it 40 points in an afternoon). Alk you have to move a little slower with.
 
Mike has a lot more experience than I and I almost always would defer. But I have to say that 360 and 8 are not likely to cause widespread coral death. 8 is NSW for alkalinity, and 360 is just not critically low. If it were 260 or 560, or 6 or 14 for alk, that'd be different. But 360 is fairly close to NSW and 8 is what I target for alkalinity.

BUT those tests are old. If either number has moved substantially from there, that's different.
 
Last set of numbers listed are from last night, so fairly current.

Ostro, like you, I have had very little succes saving a dying piece. There are several other colonies in the vacinity that the acro crabs can jump to if they desire.

I added 14 tsp of Turbo Calc last night (450 total system gallons) and increased the outflow of the CA reactor. I also set the Kalk reactor to stir an additional time during the day so I am hoping that will raise the Alk as well.

Thanks for all the help everyone.
 
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