Could my fish load be my N03 source?

[mmotown]

Guys I think I have found why I am having problems keeping SPS healthy in my tank and I need you to confirm my theory. Whenever I did water changes in the past I have always did 30gal every 2 weeks and I tested for ALK, CA and MG. Sometimes my ALK would fluctuate but never very much and I thought that was the culprit when my SPS would RTN. Well now I am thinking it is my NO3. I have a Octo 300 pro skimmer and I run carbon in a magnum canister filter. I have a fuge in which nothing seems to grow and it is fed from my tank. I tested my NO3 last night and it was at 50/.5 per Salifert. Even when I do water changes N03 is present and I can’t see to get it down. I have been planning on adding more sand to my tank. I don’t over feed and in my 150 I have about 25 fish. As I think back 4-5yrs when sps thrived in my tank, I don’t think I had many fish at all. Maybe 6 in all. In order to keep SPS can you have a large fish load?

Also dosing vodka is not an option anymore because I killed a few corals that way...

 

[robsk]

that kind of fish load certainly could be an issue...but your carbon filtration might be an issue...any other thoughts out there?

 

[areze]

well nitrates certainly arent good for coral. for 25ppm to cause death though... well odd anyway. but all the same, only sure fire answer to it is a nitrate reactor. adding more sand, more liverock, could do it, but a nitrate reactor is the closest thing to a gaurentee to fix the "issue"

 

[MileHighFish]

Is there dead zones behind your rock for detritus to accumulate?

 

[mmotown]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14303739#post14303739 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MileHighFish
Is there dead zones behind your rock for detritus to accumulate?

Not really. What I plan on doing now is just let what doesn't survive of the sps and start over. All of my softies are doing well. I plan on reaquascaping and adding more sand. Sometimes i see why people say I have had it.

 

[Canarygirl]

Is there dead zones behind your rock for detritus to accumulate?

Is that powdering detritus from live rock as much as an issue as un-eaten fish food detritus (or fish poop that sits there due to lack of flow)?

I don't have the organic detritus but I do get a build up of live rock detritus in certain areas. I guess I could put some in a container of tank water, let the water clear and test it for NO3 and PO4.

 

[MCsaxmaster]

I'd be less suspicious of the nitrate (though that could be an issue) and more suspicious of elevated phosphate, possibly noxious compounds or elevated labile (= easily digested by microbes) dissolved organic carbon, all of which often times (but not always) correlate with elevated nitrate in captivity.

Inorganic phosphate you can test for and I would do so. Noxious metabolites you can't, and labile DOC you can't (though a lab could).

I'd look at more aggressive nutrient export: skim hard, use GAC, figure out why algae aren't growing in the refugium and get it cranking, do water changes, etc.

 

[E.intheC]

I think a lot of it has to due with your fish load, although it really depends on what fish you have.. 25 red headed gobies in a tank that large wouldn't really add much, but 25 triggers would be a ridiculous overload.

You should check your feeding schedule, and also see if you can increase your flow and your skimmer's efficiency.

How is your fuge set up? with that many nitrates, you should have plenty of growth in a properly set up fuge.

 

[mmotown]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14315542#post14315542 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by E.intheC
I think a lot of it has to due with your fish load, although it really depends on what fish you have.. 25 red headed gobies in a tank that large wouldn't really add much, but 25 triggers would be a ridiculous overload.

You should check your feeding schedule, and also see if you can increase your flow and your skimmer's efficiency.

How is your fuge set up? with that many nitrates, you should have plenty of growth in a properly set up fuge.

My tank has been in operation 4yrs and some change. It is feed directly from my tank so I have no filter sock on the return but I have one on the output that is fed to my skimmer section. Do you think I could have a build up of stuff in the fuge. I already have plenty flow in my tank. As far as the fish load this is what I have

2 onyx clowns
1 oscellaris clown
1 six line wrasse
1 yellow tang
1 blonde naso tang 5"
1 unicorn tang 3"
1 vhamingi tang 2"
8 anthias
6 blue green chromis
2 scissor tails.

I rinse my food and I feed every other day. When I feed I don't put more food into the tank until what I 've put in is eaten. I just can't determine my nitrate source. I am skimming well, I use carbon and phosphate removal media? I also do water changes every 2 weeks...Any suggestions?

 

[E.intheC]

hmm.... only a few questions come to mind.. (and forgive me if you've already answered them).. How often do you clean out your filter sock? That should be cleaned out at least 1x per week, if not more. Is there any area in the sump or fuge where a lot of detritus can accumulate? How often do you clean out your skimmer?
As I was re-reading your orig. post, something else came to mind.. is your fuge tied directly to your tank, where the skimmer comes in after that? most people have the skimmer as the first thing that touches the raw water from the tank. as for adding more sand: you should have under 1 inch or more than 4 inches. It should be very small grained so that the detritus doesn't get trapped. Many people use crushed coral which is bad because the detritus sinks down and gets within the crevices, making it hard to siphon out.

Your fish load seems high, but not terrible. Personally, that's more fish than I'd have.. If it were me, I'd get rid of one of the clowns, and all but one of the large tangs. That's just my personal opinion. However, I definitely wouldn't have the unicorn tang in there, and when the other tangs grow, that will certainly add to the nitrate problem.

 

[salty joe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14302442#post14302442 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by robsk
that kind of fish load certainly could be an issue...but your carbon filtration might be an issue...any other thoughts out there?

Has the use of activated carbon been associated with SPS problems?

 

[mmotown]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14323144#post14323144 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by E.intheC
hmm.... only a few questions come to mind.. (and forgive me if you've already answered them).. How often do you clean out your filter sock? That should be cleaned out at least 1x per week, if not more. Is there any area in the sump or fuge where a lot of detritus can accumulate? How often do you clean out your skimmer?
As I was re-reading your orig. post, something else came to mind.. is your fuge tied directly to your tank, where the skimmer comes in after that? most people have the skimmer as the first thing that touches the raw water from the tank. as for adding more sand: you should have under 1 inch or more than 4 inches. It should be very small grained so that the detritus doesn't get trapped. Many people use crushed coral which is bad because the detritus sinks down and gets within the crevices, making it hard to siphon out.

Your fish load seems high, but not terrible. Personally, that's more fish than I'd have.. If it were me, I'd get rid of one of the clowns, and all but one of the large tangs. That's just my personal opinion. However, I definitely wouldn't have the unicorn tang in there, and when the other tangs grow, that will certainly add to the nitrate problem.

My fuge is set up like this. Looking at the tank the skimmer is to the left the return is in the middle and the fuge is to the right. The fuge gets water directly from the tank and one of the returns from the tank is teed over to the skimmer side. Perhaps over the years there has been a build up in my fuge because I never clean it and nothing ever grows in it although the chaeto in it is green but not growing.
My sand is above 1" and less than 4" and it is fine grain sand.....

 

[mmotown]

One more thing...

If I was to " " start over. What would I do? I remember the good ole days when my tank was thriving and I could grow anything. Now my tank is a reflection of our economy but people say it still looks nice. If you had to start over based on what I have listed above what would you do and why...thx

 

[E.intheC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14328786#post14328786 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mmotown
My fuge is set up like this. Looking at the tank the skimmer is to the left the return is in the middle and the fuge is to the right. The fuge gets water directly from the tank and one of the returns from the tank is teed over to the skimmer side. Perhaps over the years there has been a build up in my fuge because I never clean it and nothing ever grows in it although the chaeto in it is green but not growing.
My sand is above 1" and less than 4" and it is fine grain sand.....

I'm really leaning toward the fish load being the problem. That and your sand should be less than 1 inch or more than 4 inches.. wetwebmedia has a lot of good articles and information on why this is. Typically you either want less than 1 inch (which is what i have) or more than 4 inches, so it's deep enough to have a DSB, or deep sand bed.

How is your fuge lit? There should be a pretty strong light over the fuge so that it can grow quickly. If I were to do it over.. it's really personal preference for the most part, but I would remove most of the sand and take out the large tangs.. and maybe focus on getting one single showpiece fish.

 

[mmotown]

I am sort of kinda leaning your way about the fish. I would think my anthias would be more of a problem than my tangs. Are you saying my other fish aren't a problem?

 

[E.intheC]

just not as much a problem as your tangs, which are larger, eat more, and produce more wastes. Your anthias eat a lot too, so that's something to consider.

Just less fish overall is going to be the key. If you take out the larger fish, IMO it will be more effective. It's tough, I agree with you there, but better in the long run.

 

[mpoletti]

I am not so sure about the fish thing. I know plenty of reefers that keep a lot of fish. I have over 30 in my 180 and my tank has some decent colors.

What is your water change regimen?

Bigger fish will produce more wates, but I know people that have 40-50 in their systems and their tanks are thriving?

It could be part of the issue, but I do not think that is the end all be all source.

And if you can understand what Chris is saying here, it is really good

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14305917#post14305917 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
I'd be less suspicious of the nitrate (though that could be an issue) and more suspicious of elevated phosphate, possibly noxious compounds or elevated labile (= easily digested by microbes) dissolved organic carbon, all of which often times (but not always) correlate with elevated nitrate in captivity.

Inorganic phosphate you can test for and I would do so. Noxious metabolites you can't, and labile DOC you can't (though a lab could).

I'd look at more aggressive nutrient export: skim hard, use GAC, figure out why algae aren't growing in the refugium and get it cranking, do water changes, etc.

 

[mmotown]

Guys I have ordered a sulphur denitrator and I have decided to start over. I am going to remove some rock and add more sand but take out some of my existing sand. I have thought about completly eliminating my fuge. Haven't decided though. What do you think?

 

[FishTruck]

Don't forget to check ro RO/DI unit! A blown out membrane could be the cultprit!

 

[wayne in norway]

What do you actually think you're doing to denitrate? Fish pee ammonium and you can't skim that out so there is always some nitrate production. You have the nongrowing chaeto (P limited?) and that's it?