Critique my refug design please

[ReefKeeperRob]

One thing I don't understand is the drain of the refug may release things that may get sucked up by the pump. But we want some of this stuff in the aquarium so that's not a bad thing. But does this damage the pump?

I'm sure there's plenty more wrong, that's just the first thing that bothers me.

 

[mg426]

I like everything but the Bio balls.

 

[gadgetboy]

Strongly agree. Bioballs in reef = bad.

 

[qfrisco]

I don't use bioballs or sponges myself, but they aren't bad as long as you rinse them out regularly. Otherwise, accumulated detritus will start generating lots of nitrates.

As for the pump, yes, it's possible that something will come out of the refugium that can damage the pump, but it's really unlikely. At the very least, you should have the strainer on the pump intake to prevent fairly big things from getting sucked in. Pods and the like shouldn't damage the pump.

 

[cbrguy]

I would axe the bio balls and sponges. Also, I would just use the drain from you display tank to feed the Fuge... Why waste electic to pump water up to it if you don't need to You'll also get a larger pod population on the refugium since you won't get shredding them with your return pump

 

[ReefKeeperRob]

cbrguy - I was thinking the same thing - but I thought you want to skim before going to the fug.

It looks like I should basically scrap the wet/dry completely and just do a refugium? This would actually work best because then I would have room in the cabinet for the refug. Do I want to skim before or after the refug? I get 550 gph from my pump, how much of that do I want to put in the refug and what do I do with the rest of the flow. I've read that is best for the pump not to restrict the water but to plumb some type of bypass. Which skimmer should I use?

I already have fish in the tank...how am I going to transition from all wet/dry to all refugium? Also I'm not completely clear on the chemical process. How does the refugium break down ammonia. I know the wet/dry breaks down ammonia into nitrite and then nitrate which is still bad but just not as bad which is why the water changes are needed. What is the process for the refugium? Does the refugium reduce or completely eliminate water changes?

Thanks!

 

[ReefKeeperRob]

There is a very similar thread going on. Skimmer first, MSX 200 is a good skimmer. If you guys know of a better skimmer please tell me. Buying everything twice is beginning to kill me.

 

[mx270]

I would not scrap the sump. I think the more options you have the better. You could add a very small pump to feed the fuge seperate of the return pump. (A maxi-jet 900 uses only 8.5W) This will give you full flow to the main tank. A 'T' in your return line will cut your pump flow far more than you might expect.

 

[ReefKeeperRob]

mx270 - Many have suggested that I get rid of the bio balls and sponges out of my wet/dry pro clear. So basically it becomes a tank of water with a basic protein skimmer. Will it do me any good to keep that running? It seems to me it makes sense just to do a refug with a good skimmer.

Please see design #2. Would there be any advantage to running the drain first to the skimmer and then to the refug. It seems a little easier the way I have it shown now but I don't know if you are supposed to run the refug and skimmer in parallel like I have it drawn here.

 

[buddah001]

Actually #2 is just what you want. If you put the skimmer after the fuge then you skim out your pods. Bad!

 

[ReefKeeperRob]

Also the air reducing baffling I have set up in the above picture would not be necessary to remove the air bubbles because it's just draining from the skimmer box to the return box.

 

[ReefKeeperRob]

Ok, so there is no disadvantage to running the skimmer and refug in parallel? I've seen some setups where significant effort has been made to go from skimmer then to refug (baffle cascade to remove airbubbles) plus it seems to get a litte more involved if you only want to use gravity as a pump to get the right amount of flow from your skimmer to go directly to your return and how much to go to your refug.

This just seems easier to me and if there's no big disadvantage I'll probably go with it.

 

[cashman95]

OK reefers...lets get on the right track! When you say refugium, do you mean an algae scrubber, pod/critter refuge area, or dsb/ criptic area? To many reefers try and acomplish all of the above in a "refugium" at one time....eventually creating disaster!

1st. Are you doing a mixed reef or an SPS reef?

2nd. What are you really trying to accomplish by having
a "refugium"

If you are doing a mixed reef and want to lower phospahtes naturally, a large algea refugium full of cheato will help with this, (so will a gfo reactor)but it needs to be setup right or problems WILL occur in time.
The refugium will need to be fast flow(keeping detritus from settling,but also keeping pods from cultivating) and after the skimmer.

If pod cultivation is what your are wanting form your "refugium" then you are going to need to slow the flow down and allow some food to settle for the critters. Algea can be used to help feed critters as well, but dont forget to keep it clean or a build up of detritus can occur and in turn create a phosphate sink. I would also keep it after the skimmer so you can keep it a bit cleaner.

You really are asking for problems by having a DSB in a refugium, unless you are one that uses filter socks and changes them on a regular basis. Detritus has a tendency to settle and again create a phosphate sink.

Notice how I specified a phosphate sink many times, with that said, I would not suggest keeping a refugium with a full blown SPS tank.....benifits just arent going to out way the cons!

As you can tell I am not a fan of refugiums, have had nothing but problems out of them, but thats just me!

Hope this helps!

 

[ReefKeeperRob]

Cashman - First I'm a newbie so I recognize that some of what I'm saying may be completely wrong.

What I'm trying to accomplish is this - the byproduct of my wet/dry is nitrates. It doesn't appeal to me to have a level of nitrates constantly increasing and then having to do water changes every 2 weeks to keep the levels non-toxic. The water change isn't so bad, it's more the fact that I will always have nitrates which are also toxic to fish and they will be constantly increasing.

I would like a system that breaks down ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate all down into non-toxic chemicals.

Maybe I'm misunderstand the term refugium. I just want a filter that gives me all non-toxic by products. If it reduces my water changes even better but not really the goal.

Also how does something like Cheatomorpha break down the chemicals. Like I said previously for a wet/dry it's Ammonia, Nitrate, then Nitrate. The Nitrate remains until you do a water change. How does the process work using something like a refug with Cheatowmorpha.

Also some people have mentioned a berlin sump? I figured everything I have been talking about is the same thing A lot of people are swearing by the berlin pump so I guess that is what I'm trying to accomplish.

 

[mx270]

Very basicly, plants use animal waste to grow and animals eat the plants. This is the cycle in a nutshell. A refuge will provide a place for plants to grow without being eaten by animals or cluttering up the display tank.

I do not recommend bioballs, but sponges work well to protect the pump from bubbles and debree. Just clean the sponge when needed.

If you keep the sump and run a seperate refuge with a different pump, your system can be modified easier without replumbing the entire system everytime. You can easily change the flow in the refuge by changing pump sizes or tuning a ball valve. It will give you more water, a bigger fuge, more room for equipment, and IMO less chance of a disaster. (If your main pump quits running, the fuge will still operate, and visa versa)

If your sump works well now (other than nitrates) why change it. Just add a fuge to the system to help control the nitrates. You may even grow fresh food for your fish with it.

 

[qfrisco]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13848524#post13848524 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefKeeperRob
Cashman - First I'm a newbie so I recognize that some of what I'm saying may be completely wrong.

What I'm trying to accomplish is this - the byproduct of my wet/dry is nitrates. It doesn't appeal to me to have a level of nitrates constantly increasing and then having to do water changes every 2 weeks to keep the levels non-toxic. The water change isn't so bad, it's more the fact that I will always have nitrates which are also toxic to fish and they will be constantly increasing.

I would like a system that breaks down ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate all down into non-toxic chemicals.

Maybe I'm misunderstand the term refugium. I just want a filter that gives me all non-toxic by products. If it reduces my water changes even better but not really the goal.

Also how does something like Cheatomorpha break down the chemicals. Like I said previously for a wet/dry it's Ammonia, Nitrate, then Nitrate. The Nitrate remains until you do a water change. How does the process work using something like a refug with Cheatowmorpha.

Also some people have mentioned a berlin sump? I figured everything I have been talking about is the same thing A lot of people are swearing by the berlin pump so I guess that is what I'm trying to accomplish.

I have no experience with berlin systems, so I can't comment on those. But basically, the live rock in your tank will be your main biological filter, i.e., processing ammonia to nitrite, and nitrite to nitrate. You are correct in that the nitrate will remain and continue to rise until you do a water change, and this is where a refugium can help you out. You do this by stocking your refugium with some macroalgae (seaweed), and chaeto is one of them, as well as caulerpa, etc.

Basically, the macroalgae consume nitrates as part of their growth cycle. On a regular basis, as the macroalgae grows, you harvest it and throw it away (or give it away). This is called "exporting nutrients". If everything is balanced right, your nitrate production will be equal to the nitrate consumption of your macroalgae and you end up with a zero nitrate system.

So back to feedback on your design - I like your Design #2 much better. In fact, that is how I have my sump/refugium setup, with the drain split to feed the skimmer and refugium sections of my sump. I do have ball valves installed so I can control the flow into both the skimmer and refugium sections. As cashman95 mentions, tweaking the flow through your refugium is important.

With respect to the DSB in the refugium - I started mine with a 5" DSB. I just removed it about a month ago precisely for the reasons cashman95 mentioned - detritus was settling on the sandbed and it's near impossible to vacuum it out. Plus, skipping the DSB will give your macro more room to grow, and more capacity to export nutrients.

Another to keep in mind is your refugium light - you will need one in order for your macro to grow. A simple spiral compact fluorescent bulb (5000K-6000K) will work great.

 

[cashman95]

Getting rid of the bioballs, and increasing skimmate will drastically reduce nitrates! Maybe add a little bit more flow to your display to help keep waste from settling.

I dont have a refugium, and I dont have any detectable nitrates(common test kits)

Bio balls work so efficiently that the cycle quickly builds up nitrates which yes do need to be diluted with a water change.

A refugium will help with reducing some nitrates, but test have been done that show an algae rufugium the same size as your display will be needed to help accomplish this. Just not worth it.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13850381#post13850381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mx270
Very basicly, plants use animal waste to grow and animals eat the plants. This is the cycle in a nutshell. A refuge will provide a place for plants to grow without being eaten by animals or cluttering up the display tank.

I do not recommend bioballs, but sponges work well to protect the pump from bubbles and debree. Just clean the sponge when needed.

If you keep the sump and run a seperate refuge with a different pump, your system can be modified easier without replumbing the entire system everytime. You can easily change the flow in the refuge by changing pump sizes or tuning a ball valve. It will give you more water, a bigger fuge, more room for equipment, and IMO less chance of a disaster. (If your main pump quits running, the fuge will still operate, and visa versa)

If your sump works well now (other than nitrates) why change it. Just add a fuge to the system to help control the nitrates. You may even grow fresh food for your fish with it.

 

[cashman95]

I thought I would post a picture of my tank, WITHOUT a refugium!

I have seen many systems with/without algae refugiums that where thriving, so yes it can be done with success, but you dont need it and it just seems like one more thing to add to a system that needs to be maintained.

Water changes are very important. My advice would be to spend more time investing/making them very easy to do, and less time on a refugium....just my 2 cents and I will leave it at that!

 

[mx270]

Tests have errors. The bottom line is animal waste is used by plants.

 

[mx270]

Cashman95, nice tank. I have no problems with your style of reefing. As you stated, a successful reef can be done with or without a refuge. Either way takes practice.

I don't have a problem with maintaining my tank..... that is what makes it a hobby. IMO a refuge is considered an additional display tank. Yes it is not as eye catching, but it gives a person a closer look at the real ocean system and can benefit the other tanks in the system.