Cryptic, Macro, or both?

Lavoisier

Premium Member
I've read Steve Tyree's material on the web (though not his book or video), the Reef Farmers website, and a dozen threads or so and I'm still having a hard time making a decision. I have a 140g tank (on a 400g build) that I can use as a cryptic tank, a traditional refugium with Macro(for true phosphate export), or put baffles in and split 70g each. (I have a sump of similar size underneath that I will also use for macro).

The hypothesis of a cryptic is appealing: better filtration with sponges and other filter feeders, as well as lots of live food for coral. I will have the tank gravity feeding into the DT. However, and it is a big however, I have yet to see any hard data on whether it actually works. To this point everything looks anecdotal and I've noticed several folks have stopped using a cryptic zone for one reason or another.

Two questions:

1) Has anyone seen any solid research on the use of cryptic tanks with reef tanks?

2) If you were me, what would you do and why?
 
I'm going to bump this to see if there might be a response but I am beginning to think cryptic may have been a fad...
 
a question back at you. :D

what is feeding all of these organisms? cryptic/macro/ATS/whatevers?

wouldn't an ever increasing population of these organisms signal an ever increasing amount of excess nutrients in the system? where are all of these nutrients coming from if these organisms are still growing? if they were able to remove nutrients, wouldn't the population die off or at the very least stay constant?

these are all fads. they are all ways to try and mask the affects of eutrophication in our systems from our lack of siphoning out detritus, either because we were told not to, or the systems have areas that are very difficult to get to. unless exports are equal to imports, then the system is going to become more eutrophic. the more eutrophic the more organisms that can feed off of these nutrients. the more organisms, the more equipment we need to counter these affects. whether it is a decreasing alk, decreasing pH, annoying algae growth, slow coral growth, or corals turning brown. they are all signs that a system is becoming more eutrophic.

in order to keep a system stable indefinitely one must have exports equal to imports for the given trophic level one is trying to emulate in their system.

G~
 
You make some excellent points Reefin', particularly your final thought about equal imports/exports. I am not a biologist so I may be way off here but I believe another important consideration is the way our systems’ inhabitants use energy. By that I mean that organisms not only grow in size and number but also convert chemical energy (food) into kinetic (movement) and electrical (life) energy. Take me for example! After having reached maturity I stopped growing, more or less--more if I eat (and drink beer) like I want! Or less if I diet and exercise (kinetic) and though I continue to consume pounds and pounds of organic import I use almost all of it to live (think, breath, feel, etc.) and move about.

The theory behind a cryptic tank would not be that we increase the imports significantly but that those organisms consume more of the current imports more efficiently, in whatever form that might be—left over food, fish poop, dead carcasses, etc.

Now, as far as I’m concerned, this is still an empirically untested hypothesis and I think the point you are making about keeping things as simple as possible has a lot to say for it. On the other hand I read a research report last year that tested the effects of deep sand beds (3 in) and shallow sand beds (1 inch). They could not correlate much at all in terms of water chemistry—ammonia, nitrates, nitrites—but they did find a correlation between the number of dead organisms in the "simpler" SSB tanks (lots more) verses in the "more complex" DSB tanks (lots fewer). This correlation was not the purpose of the controlled experiment so they rightfully did not draw any definitive conclusions other than to note that there might be potential benefits in this area for DSBs.

What I would be looking for in a cryptic tank would be greater diversity in the environment, hence a more stable system than in a less diverse environment. The problem I face—hence the questions (which I really appreciate you taking the time to reply)—is that the hypothesis will not necessarily be born out in my particular system. Sometimes complexity proves disastrous, sometimes simplicity actually raises the risk of failure in an environment (remember the engineered wheat that was super abundant but got wiped out by a single pathogen)…sigh…our hobby does not generate enough money to warrant extensive research by well equipped labs! We end up having to rely on anecdotal experiences of successful reefers.

By the way, I will be aggressively skimming my system and using mechanical export of nutrients with growth then removal of macro algae, and may even use an ATS (though weekly scraping is not appealing to me!)

Kind Regards
 
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why do you want greater diversity? how does this help the system?

what people fail to understand is how phosphates are used in biological functions. it is not a building material but an energy source. hard to get into right now, but look up ATP Synthase to scratch the surface. since phosphates are used as an energy source then expelled, they can then be used for other organisms. this is all good and all, but phosphates have to be exported, they can not be off gassed like other elements. if phosphates are being converted back and forth between inorganic and organic phosphates, yet we are still feeding the tank, the total amount of potential energy for organisms is always going up, which tends to end up powering algae since that is the organism that is capable of using water soluble phosphates.

ATS also do not work the way you think. the are not outcompeting algae in the display for phosphates directly. they are outcompeting the display for detritus. detritus is the enemy in our systems. you remove it, then you remove the greatest amount of potential phosphates that can be released back into the system for use by other organims. detritus is mainly comprised of bacterial flock. the detritus collects on the ATS plates, then starts to rot. releasing water soluble phosphates that algae will exploit being that there is ample lighting. the fact that there is good flow increases the rate of decomposition of the detritus, oxygen is great for doing that. :D

everyone focuses so much on phosphates, but few understand its role in our systems and how the different types of phosphates are used by different types of organisms. we all have just heard, we need to keep phosphates low or you will get algae. not the case. we must keep inorganic, water soluble phosphates as low as necessary for maintaining the biotope one wants to emulate.

when comparing the different substrate types, think of it as the amount of dust(detritus) you can sweep under a rug. the the thicker the rug the more dust that can be swept under before anybody notices. detritus is our enemy. you remove the detritus you remove almost all of the reasons what makes keeping SW "hard". seriously. the way substrates work is they slowly migrate phosphates (detritus) slowly downward through them. exchanging phosphates between bacteria and the calcium carbonate the entire time. this give and take migrates the phosphates slowly downward until there is no where else for it to go. that is why shallow substrates do not last as long as DSB. it has nothing to do with the biodiversity. it has to do with the sheer volume of area for detrital build up and binding spots on the calcium carbonate matrix. as for the greater number of dead organisms in a shallow compared to a deep substrate. why are they there anyway? ;) the shallower the substrate the less food available for any living population of organism. the more food the more organisms.

G~
 
why do you want greater diversity? how does this help the system?
I'm enjoying our conversation. Yes, I did not explain myself well. Let me try again though I am going to be "œlong winded" and you will probably lose your interest! I do not necessarily want a more diverse system I want the most stable (long term--10+ years) system I can get. I have found precious few empirical studies that find strong correlations given definable elements in a reef aquarium system (i.e. cryptic tanks or detritus build up whether organic or inorganic) and results. i.e. long term sustainability. What we have are particular observations (anecdotal) from reefers from which we are able to form various hypothesis but which cannot be verified and reproducable given the vast difference in our various tanks. This is the nature of inductive and deductive knowledge. We create weak arguments when we deduce correlations from particular uncontrolled observations. This does not mean the arguments are false, they are just weak and may or may not be true. Our forums are (to me) a persuasive example of our prediciment. Folks do not argue about what is certain"”temperatures over 90 degrees kill corals"”we argue about bare bottoms, SSBs, and DSBs. We argue about these hypothesis because they are uncertain (inductively weak). In one of the few (only) studies I have found, the experiment (controlled with an equal number of tanks with no sandbeds) found a clear correlation between the depth of the sand bed and the number of organisms that died during the study. In the shallow sand bed (1") more organisms died than in the deep sand beds (3"), even though the deep sand beds had a more complex environment and more organisms than the SSBs. This finding does not "œprove" that DSB are better than BBs or SSB (the study was done over a period of months not years) but it is a strong argument that given all other components being equal (and they never are in our systems) DSBs are more sustainable relative to the life of a systems organism over a few months. So this is why I am considering "œgreater diversity," it appears to be a stronger argument as I have not found any controlled studies that can correlate less diverse systems and long term sustainability. I hope I have been clearler than in my previous post.

what people fail to understand is how phosphates are used in biological functions. it is not a building material but an energy source. hard to get into right now, but look up ATP Synthase to scratch the surface. since phosphates are used as an energy source then expelled, they can then be used for other organisms. this is all good and all, but phosphates have to be exported, they can not be off gassed like other elements. if phosphates are being converted back and forth between inorganic and organic phosphates, yet we are still feeding the tank, the total amount of potential energy for organisms is always going up, which tends to end up powering algae since that is the organism that is capable of using water soluble phosphates.

Actually, I never mentioned phosphates but I think you are making my point for me. The phosphates in the food we feed our tanks are used for energy by our organisms. The energy can be used in a variety of ways from cell reproduction in order to replenish or to grow, electrical energy in order to sense and respond, and kinetic energy to move. More diverse systems are able to more efficiently use the energy we introduce with food than less diverse systems (my self acknowledged weak hypothesis).

Your reference to ATP synthase is fascinating. I would not claim to understand this complex interaction but I did look it up and at the risk of gross simplification it appears that the end product is energy and hydrogen:

(Wikipedia) The overall reaction sequence is: ADP + Pi*→ ATP, where ADP and Pi*are joined together by ATPsynthase
Energy is often released in the form of*protium*or*H+, moving down an*electrochemical gradient, such as from the lumen into the stroma of*chloroplastsor from the inter-membrane space into the matrix in*mitochondria.

An*electrochemical gradient*is a*gradient*of*electrochemical potential, usually for an*ion*that can move across*membrane. The gradient consist of two parts, the*electrical potential*and a difference in the chemical*concentration*across a membrane. The difference of*electrochemical potentials*can be interpreted as a type of*potential energy*available for work in a cell. The energy is stored in the form of*chemical potential, which accounts for an ion's*concentration gradient*across a*cell membrane, and*electrostatic energy, which accounts for an ion's tendency to move under influence of the*transmembrane potential.

ATS also do not work the way you think. the are not outcompeting algae in the display for phosphates directly. they are outcompeting the display for detritus. detritus is the enemy in our systems. you remove it, then you remove the greatest amount of potential phosphates that can be released back into the system for use by other organims. detritus is mainly comprised of bacterial flock. the detritus collects on the ATS plates, then starts to rot. releasing water soluble phosphates that algae will exploit being that there is ample lighting. the fact that there is good flow increases the rate of decomposition of the detritus, oxygen is great for doing that. :D

everyone focuses so much on phosphates, but few understand its role in our systems and how the different types of phosphates are used by different types of organisms. we all have just heard, we need to keep phosphates low or you will get algae. not the case. we must keep inorganic, water soluble phosphates as low as necessary for maintaining the biotope one wants to emulate.
I am guilty here of not understanding the roll of phosphates beyond them being a source of energy. I do perfer to think in terms of energy as the chemistry quickly eludes me. However, I welcome more clarification from you though I may be a lost cause...

when comparing the different substrate types, think of it as the amount of dust(detritus) you can sweep under a rug. the the thicker the rug the more dust that can be swept under before anybody notices. detritus is our enemy. you remove the detritus you remove almost all of the reasons what makes keeping SW "hard". seriously. the way substrates work is they slowly migrate phosphates (detritus) slowly downward through them. exchanging phosphates between bacteria and the calcium carbonate the entire time. this give and take migrates the phosphates slowly downward until there is no where else for it to go. that is why shallow substrates do not last as long as DSB. it has nothing to do with the biodiversity. it has to do with the sheer volume of area for detrital build up and binding spots on the calcium carbonate matrix. as for the greater number of dead organisms in a shallow compared to a deep substrate. why are they there anyway? ;) the shallower the substrate the less food available for any living population of organism. the more food the more organisms.

G~

Repectfully, I confess I do not like your analogy as I think it paints too simple a picture. If I use a cryptic tank (or DSB as I have on previous tanks 75g, 90g, 180g"”I keep wanting bigger!) I will replenish the infauna (detrivores) every six months or so. To extend your analogy I am making sure I have dust eaters under the rug! Theoretically, they allow for more effiecient use my energy input (food).

Thanks again for your thoughtful responses. You are expanding my horizons.

Kind Regards
 
ok, lets simplify. the current methodology to keeping reef tanks makes thing as difficult as possible because they completely ignore the role phosphates play in our system.

the whole point of all of this biodiversity is to use of nutrients, mainly phosphates. they just use it and some of it is incorporated into their biomass. the problem is that this increase in biomass also counts in determining what the overall trophic level of the system is. the more biomass the more nutrients, correct? whether it is free or bound within a biomass they are still there. so what is feeding this biomass. one must also keep a growing population of any biomass in order to incorporate more nutrients in order to keep less freely available correct? where does this end, and where does all of these resources come from?

we all want a system that will last forever. if a biomass is always increasing, then how can it last forever if it is always gaining mass? at some point it will have to collapse. what if you remove the resources from the beginning? will there be any increasing biomass of organisms dependent on these resources? what do we want to feed in our systems, the critters we pay good money for or all of the other mouths feeding off of the wastes of the organisms we paid money for to what end? are we actually exporting these organisms? if not, then the total nutrient levels of the system are not being maintained or going down, they are in fact increasing.

detritus is the enemy here. if this is removed in a timely manner, then all of the other organisms that rely on waste resources will not exist. this includes pods, algae, a whole insane amount of extra bacteria. ever wonder why as systems mature they have pH and alk issues? it is because of all of the bacteria producing CO2 and the bacteria using up elemental carbon for their biological functions. again get rid of the waste and those two problems are eliminated. nearly all of the equipment we purchase is to mask the affects of eutrophication in our systems. ATS, "refugiums", carbon dosing, Ca reactors, phosphate reactors, ... remove the source of the phosphates, then none of these pieces of equipment are needed.

how does one remove the detritus in a timely manner. it all depends on the environment one wants to emulate. if you are interested in SPS, then BB is the way to go with a dedicated area for accumulating detritus in an easy to siphon location along with a good skimmer. if all of the detritus is removed once a week, then what is going to feed on the waste produced by the rotting detritus? nothing. the only organisms we will be worried about feeding would be the ones we paid money for. and we can feed them as much as we care, within reason. the biggest mistake people make with BB systems is that they feed them like they are substrate systems. sparingly. they are so worried about nutrients. when animals need organically bound phosphate, and water soluble phosphate are ignored in the case of higher organisms, or toxic to hermatypic organisms, such as the SPS.

for those with more eutrophic systems, then a shallow substrate that can be cleaned when trophic levels get to high is the way to go.

the whole point is to know the trophic environment of the organisms one wants to keep and adapt the system to this. the only real rule for maintaining a SW system indefinitely is can you keep exports equal to imports in a manner that supports the given trophic level emulated. in oligotrophic, it needs to be as closes to equal as physically possible, for more eutrophic environments there is more leeway.

G~
 
You make a persuasive and coherent argument and have given me some interesting ideas to think through again. Although logically sound, even compelling, I am a little uneasy with the purely deductive nature of what you are suggesting. On the other hand, as reefers, we have little else to go on. I wonder if most SPS tanks are set up now as you are suggesting? I'll spend some time on the SPS forum this week and see what I can find though I'm guessing you might have a pretty good idea.

I have another concern that is purely aesthetic. You can see from my moniker what my favorite fish is. Do you think it would be possible to keep a pair of Mandarins in a 400g DT/700g total set up as you have outlined?

Finally, a practical question, how do you design your system to create "a dedicated area for accumulating detritus in an easy to siphon location?"

Kind Regards.
 
in a 400g DT, you might have a chance, but i would say no, you can not setup a properly designed SPS (oligotrophic) tank and guarantee to keep a mandarin that is not already weened off of pods. there just might not be enough places for poo/detritus to hide to support the pods, therefore not supporting the mandarin. a big pod population just means that there is a lot of nutrients for them to feed on. not necessarily a good thing, just another indicator of the trophic level of the system. mandarins are one of those critters that do not actually live out on the outer reef, but in the rubble area, where detritus accumulates and thus a perfect breeding area for pods. high flow and very low nutrients does not make for a great home for pods. ;) if you must have a mandarin, then you are going to have a compromise system and are going to have to deal with the nutrient balancing act. enough to support the pods, yet not enough to be toxic to the hermatypic organisms.

as for designing a tank for detrital removal as its primary concern here is a link to my build thread. if you would like to see another tank here is Bomber's. i am still working on my next tank in the new house. trying to figure out where we are going to put a 300+g tank. here is what i think as the perfect piece of equipment for a reef tank. the conical settling tank.

http://www.thereeftank.com/gallery/files/2/0/5/0/2050Settling_tank.jpg

this is essentially what a "refugium" is, a settling tank, but we like to glorify them and think that they are more than just a place to collect poo. :D the object is to have the display flow greater than the flow through the settling tank. allowing all of the detritus to settle to the bottom of the cone, where once a week a turn of the valve removes all detritus. what makes the conical settling tank even better is the fact that it behaves just the opposite of that of an ATS. instead of collecting detritus in a highly oxygenated area, it collects it in a low flow area which piles it up deeper and deeper causing a drop in the O2 levels which retard the decomposition of the detritus meaning less nutrients are released between draining sessions. "refugiums" are nothing more than settling tanks. instead of collecting the detritus for removal, we were told that it is being used by other organisms to make it "go away". obviously it does not if the biomass of the "refugium" is still increasing, not to mention the fact that phosphates have to actually be physically removed from the system, they do not off gas. there is nothing wrong with running a live sump this way, as long as the aquarist knows that at some point it is going to need to be emptied of its nutrients in order to restart the process. calcium carbonate is a fantastic phosphate binder, and there is nothing wrong with using it as such, but like any binder eventually it will run out of binding sites and need to be refreshed or replaced.

this idea is nothing new. in fact this was all hashed out back between 2003-2005 on here and other sites. for some reason RC still holds onto the sand methodology more than other sites. again there is nothing wrong with using sand, but the thinking that it does not need to be treated like any other filtering body in our systems is outdated, it must be cleaned regularly in order to maintain its binding function. it all depends on how much poo you want to keep as a pet. for a true SPS system the answer needs to be zero. you can not guarantee that there is very little poo in a tank with a lot of LR and sand. poo will hide. for those more interested in softie tanks, then some poo is a good thing and nobody wants to see detritus floating around, so add some sand and let it hide it until the detritus needs to be removed because the eutrophication of the system has become out of hand.

the amount of effort needed to keep a SW system becomes significantly less once the exports equal the trophic level of the given environment one wants to emulate. there is no reason why a BB SPS system can not run indefinitely if setup to remove all detritus in a timely manner. if nothing accumulates, then what is there to go wrong? where are those heavy metals going to build up. ;) what stability is more biodiversity giving you? it just means a greater number of organisms living and dying, how is that more stable? whenever an organism dies it is releasing its bound nutrients as the bacteria break it down. what if these organisms were not in the system, or in very small numbers? how is this not more stable?

is this all roses and no thorns, no. running a true BB system means that maintenance needs to be done in a timely manner. your leeway is less without the giant phosphate sink knows as a substrate. you can go a couple of weeks without removing the detritus, but much longer than that, then one will see the affects of eutrophication. the opposite is also true. with the giant phosphate sink knows as the substrate allows for a ton of leeway, in fact years in some cases, but as we all know at some point all tanks start to show "old tank syndrome". this is the affects of eutrophication become greater than the equipment on the system able to mask it. GFO, carbon dosing, can only do so much. at this point the piper needs to be paid and the substrate needs to be replaced or refreshed. it all boils down to where on the maintenance scale you want to sit and the organisms you want to keep. it really does make that much sense. we must clean up after our pets. all organisms poo, it has to be removed at some point, it is not just going to go away. it is us that make this hobby harder and more expensive than it really is.

read through the Bomber thread for more information on all of this.

G~
 
"Cryptic, Macro, or both?"

I would only caution that you don't go too low on nitrates and get nitrate limited.
...the Redfield ratio...which tells us that the elemental composition of marine organic matter is composed of carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorus in a roughly 106:16:1 ratio.


This could inhibit algae growth including macro or even calcareous algae. This may be unlikely but it does happen. If your nitrates are very low but your phosphates stubbornly begin to slowly rise, it might be the culprit.

Some people that dose vodka run into this problem from time to time. I have a true ATS and when I experimented with vodka, my calcareous stopped growing right away.

My dump bucket style ATS is custom designed and built by me. I started using standard window screen and when it wore out I found that I no longer needed to use a screen because it was growing right on the clear plastic.

The purpose of the design (that was inspired by the inventor Dr. Adey) is to get as close to the maximum growth as possible by breaking the surface tension around each individual strand of algae and getting more water contact, which improves respiration, nutrient uptake and light absorption. Part of the point is to have zero clumping.

This is done by first, allowing the algae strands to get flooded and then get a strong rush of laminar water flow as the water passes out of the tray. The next phase is a quick reversal of the remaining water flow that culminates with water crashing into the back wall of the scrubber. The crash causes lots of turbulence.

What I am saying here is that very little detritus is trapped in this type of ATS yet it works quite well. Going back to my new tank, before my bacteria got going, I got orders of magnitude more detritus ON the sand bed than got trapped IN the algae bed. Nutrients are indeed taken up after rotting and that is the way that I like it but the rotting does not actually take place inside a well designed scrubber.

Now, when I read about the cryptic zone I tried what is described below. You probably would not have the results that I had because you are skimming. Vodka, an ATS, a DBS and a cryptic zone at the same time was over kill so these results are outliers.

I mention these only for reference. You can dismiss them because they are not scientific experiments. I have a very different end game than most because I am trying to grow NPS corals so I feed very heavily but need my nutrient load very low as well.

My old tank ran well for 8+ years before I relocated and now I am running a lot of experiments so I get some odd results but I learn from them.

This is only a very subjective observation of my case study number one. I put a DSB of 8" in a 55 gallon sump tank that was connected to a display tank of 130 gallons. The rest of the sump was filled to the brim with a very porous coral rubble. I put only 2 gallons of DT water trough the sump per day. within a few weeks, after harvesting algae, it didn't grow back. I upgraded the lighting and played with different lighting schedules but it never restarted.

I went for years without any active filtration. A had no mechanical what so ever. I just had aeration. My nutrient parameters stayed stable but the phosphates slowly began to rise over time. Now I am starting to dose nitrates to see if things start to turn around.

Case study number two(a prequel) In my old tank, I had a Jaubert sand bed. For those that are not familiar with the popularized version that I am talking about, I will describe it.

I had a plenum or open water space of about an inch on the bottom of the tank. A layer of screen with 3 inches of coral gravel was on top of that. Another screen was on top of the gravel, with 4 more inches of coral sand on top of that. I lowered the front so that it looked better against the front glass. Critters are suppose to inhabit the top, aerobic zone but nothing gets passed the two screens into the anaerobic zone and the stagnant zones.

I wanted to see into the plenum so before I installed anything, I encased a plasticized magnet in epoxy and placed it on the bottom piece of glass in the tank. The stand that I had, allowed me to look up through the bottom of the tank. In about a month a layer of detritus formed on the bottom glass. In a few months, I put another magnet up to the first one and was able to slowly and carefully drag it around through the sediment. I could see that it was very uniform at about 1/4 inch thick. I only did this one or two more times over 8 years or so. It wasn't too exciting.


When I tore the tank down, I was very careful, like an paleontologist. When I got through the sand beds I looked at the bottom sediment and there was that same depth of 1/4 inch of detritus that formed in the first few months.

It appeared to me that something processed this stuff. The screens are there to keep out critters and there weren't any dead skeletons, shells or any other forms of remains. This led me to think that the last vestiges of detritus must have been falling to the bottom slowly and bacteria was (...well not eating it but) processing it away. The ATS must have been the eventual vehicle for export of detritus byproducts that come from different stages of decomposition.

In nature, on dry land, fecal excrement is not the last stage of nutrient breakdown. Otherwise, we would be buried in it. It is broken down whether it is in the soil or sitting on the sidewalk. There is always something that lives off of what that last organism left behind. To some degree, this can be done inside of a closed reef system, although removal is far better where possible!!! Never the less, there is a complex food chain going up the latter before food enters a fish's gut. Likewise, there is a complex and little understood chain of organisms that process that food after it leaves the gut. "Dust to dust" and all that?

In a Deep Sand Bed, I would think that whatever is deposited at the bottom is pretty close to inert. In any case, I think that the ticking "nutrient bomb" is much less of a potential problem than many people think. Yes, it is a sink but a very good one. Again, this is keeping in mind that an ATS takes up waist and heavy metal that might not otherwise get processed in another tank. As a side note, I have a thin sand bed in my current tank that is there for cosmetic reasons only. I kept the sand bed in the sump but took out the cryptic zone.

I do not suggest that anyone use any of these methods.
 
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Great read! There is no doubt in my mind that detritus is the root of many evils, so to speak. Having run a 12g nano now for nearly 5 years, both without disturbing the SB and with weekly vacuuming, I can say without reservation that detritus removal is certainly the way to go for long term health. Detritus removal, along with 10% weekly WCs, allows my non-mechanical/non-chemically filtered tank to maintain consistent '0' readings of NO3 and PO4 (Salifert).

I use a shallow 1" SB and only replace a small amount over time if it thins out.
 
Don't forget that enough pods can consume any amount of food particles. Although my preferred way to deal with the food particles would be to stir them up for the corals and small fish to eat :)
 
i have both a cryptic and macro fuge in my sump, i have to say that the cryptic traps quite some detritus that is siphoned out once a month. i have tons of filter feeders in there, sponges and feather dusters. the rocks are on a small egg crate rack, which i take out and suck out the stuff underneath. the rocks also get covered in dust, which is washed off when taking them out.

what i think helps with this kind of system is the addition of vodka, as the filterfeeders love the high amount of bacteria in the water. i would add both systems to your sump, as 70g each is alot. just check to have little light reach the cryptic zone as i get some cyano in this transition zone.

i too think that the blasting of rocks helps reducing nutrient buildup, just make sure you have an area in your system where this can settle and be siphoned out.

greetings
 
I am still a fan of the tried and true traditional refugium with live rock rubble and cheato. I have had one for years and with the right amount of the cheato and rubble have never had any outbreaks of troublesome algae in my tanks. Just the occasional hair algae that my tangs and blenny would eat right up.
 
Sorry for the simplistic sidetrack, but i want to be very clear on something..

If I put cheato in a refugium, it grows, and I remove it... Am I removing phosphates from the system?
 
yes, the phosphates turn into food for the cheato which in turn makes more cheato

I ask because of Reefin Dude's very erudite-sounding posts. Implied to me that organisms just sort of occupy phosphates before releasing them back thus leading to an ever increasing level of phosphates in the tank. But I'm not sure i understood.
 
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