Culturing your own Phytoplankton

Wow, well if you ever need a new measuring stick let me know. plus it only tells a range of amounts it doesn't tell you exactly how much algae are really present.

Bugger - yeah you might see some new blooms, cause phyto does have some amounts of phosphate and other things, you should be fine, just take it slow at first.
 
Bugger said:
Anthony is right it so diffucult and time consuming anybody that tells you its easy to grow is a liar.

phyto is easy to grow.

i spent several weeks reading numerous articles on the subject. it sounded very difficult, but i thought the same thing about maintaining a saltwater tank as opposed to freshwater. i spend less than 5 mins a week maintaining the culture. i have 3 2-liter bottles that i rotate. after i empty a bottle, i dip it in my trash can full of saltwater & fill it up. i also rotate my bottles about 45 degrees daily when i gather plankton to feed my tank, otherwise 1 wall of the bottle becomes really dark green since light fixutre is beside bottles. i don't reduce the salinity of the water. i don't sterilize, though i would to change that. i don't wait fur culture growth to peak. i'm sure i could grow denser cultures if i spent more time, but what i'm doing works.

the tunicates that came on my tbs rock began receding after going in to my tank. once i started dosing plankton, their growth took off. i haven't noticed changes in other filter feeders. i do not have a phosphate problem.

the cost of the setup was less than 2 bottles of dt's. i have nothing against dt's. i happily used their product prior to growing my own
 
quality... not quantity my friends.

That is the thrust of my point.

I'm lucky enough to occasionally play with the big toys/labs and have access to more folks with bigger toys/labs :p The differences can be amazing.

If you did/could do a bioassay on what you/we are home-growing, many folks would be surprised and disappointed.
 
If you did/could do a bioassay on what you/we are home-growing, many folks would be surprised and disappointed.

that's kind of like saying that if you compared our reef husbandry techniques to those of the ocean you would be surprised and disappointed.

I'm sure your right Anthony and we agree but.......Since no one can duplicate nature EVEN DT's, we have to live by this next quote.

No doubt that DT's has the science and technology to provide a very high quality product but.......if you spent about 10 minutes a day you too can grow a great phytoplankton like I've been doing for the past couple of years.

I guess its just a matter of what is a priority to you. none-the-less this thread has been very informational.
 
I think its more a matter of trusting (and comparing) the analysis that some manufacturers have paid to have done on their products if you are not interested in paying to have one done on your own cultured phyto (hundreds of dollars to have done).

Its not impossible to know the quality of of your/our home-grown phyto, of course. So... the ocean analogy doesn't stick for me.

And while I do';t see a very big difference in most established brands of sea salt, for example,... I do see a (very) big difference in the quality of typically home grown phyto versus lab cultured from the likes of folks like DT (or anyone that invests in the equipment/labs/chillers/research to make a better phyto).

Its just one of those examples where a mfg product really does stand out.

We could not have the same conversation about frozen mysids, FD krill or nori algae, for example. These foods are so similar enough (nutritional assays) between brands that an argument about which is better is not worth the time invested.

So do I think home-grown phyto is "bad?" Heck no. Withstanding some junk fertilizers that push metals/contaminants though to your system.

Do I think home-grown phyto is very helpful for some filter feeders we keep? Heck yeah! Please... do grow it if you cannot afford better/bottled.

Do I think home-grown is inferior to the better lab cultured products? Yep.

Do I think the bottled "better" phyto products are worth buying instead of culturing in light of how relatively little is needed in most systems and for how much I value the health of my animals? Yep again.

For me... if I'm going to feed it/such things to my system at all... and believe it works/is useful, then I do not want to use anything inferior when a better option is readily available.

Most folks overestimate just how much phyto is actually needed in a system. And as such... overestimate the expense of using commercial products in turn.
 
Anthony, you make a great point and another topic worthy or further discussion.

1. HOW MUCH PHYTO IS REALLY NEEDED IN A SYSTEM?

2. WHAT DO YOU BASE THIS ON?

3. HOW WOULD YOU MEASURE YOUR PHYTO DENSITY IN A SYSTEM?



thanks, hope these are answerable questions
 
at issue is what can be measured quantitatively (but expensively/tedious at least)... and what can be estimated with practical means by average hobbyists.

Most folks fall into the latter category.

So when you start adding say .5 oz of home-grown phyto to your system per 100 gall, and notice little or no increase in... say, skimmate production, but then ramp up to adding 2 oz of phyto per 100 gallons of water and notice a distinct increase in skimmate production - its gotta make you wonder ;)

In kind... if the addition of phyto seemingly doubled the growth of your cluster fanworm population (ascidians, poriferans... whatever)... but the tripling of yor phyto dose did not further multiply the population, you have to wonder again.

Another poor man's test to get you in the ballpark: test your DOC levels at the start and track them over time. Were they the same or similar in the weeks prior to light phyto feeding but steadily climbed as the use/abuse of phyto by volume also increased?

This might be telling about the phyto that was excess but did not get skimmed out obviously, but dissolved instead.

You will also notice a steady fall/flattening of RedOX values from a persistent overfeeding of most anything. This indirectly reflects food/nutrients that are not banked (used by living organisms) or exported (ala skimmer for example), but instead have dissolved and become a burden to water quality.

Indeed... these are not scientifically exact by any measure... but then again, they are part of the reality that we can decipher in trends of water quality.

In my opinion, phyto use is very helpful; in small regular (I do daily) quantities. But it is commonly overused in aquaria that are dominated by zooplankton feeding corals.
 
Culture tecniques used by DT's can be imatated. In not all that convinced that Dt's is better then my cultures. I nice little project would to see actual comparison done. The guy at DT's said there is a decress in EDT when phytoplanton in the dark cycle he then siad that his cultures are on a 24 hour light cycle and there EDT levels never drop. What happense when those cultures go into there bottled package. (darkcycle) they are refridgerated so I assume that EDT holds up but Im not really sure what happense. Phytoplanton is at its most nutritious when havested at a certain time and cared for in a certain way. I think The man's comments are mostly to promote his product. There separation tecniques must be done with screens of some kind.
 
And more from senior Tagrin...

He seems disappointed that some folks will make offhand judgements without taking the time to define/research their assertions.

I can't say I blame him.

Bugger... please be more open-minded about the information being shared here by D. Tagrin and others. Even ask yourself how likely you think it is that any(!) other phyto manufacturer would be to answering questions posed to them and granting permission to reprint them! Your stated opinion dismissing Tagrin's information as being self-serving is... ignorant at best. To be clear, are you saying that you believe his info to be largely false? And if you agree that his information seems sound and reasonable, then why should it not stand on its own merit to the benefit of his investment/business? Please... think before you speak.

Mr. Tagrin did not start this thread nor find it. I wanted answers to questions posed here, and he was one of the few (perhaps only) industry person I knew that would readily answer our questions. If you can't be gracious, I'll ask you to say nothing at all then... in my forum at large.

Mr. Tagrin's followup:


1. When my product is packaged it is not in a dark cycle, it is dormant. The difference is that when phytoplankton is cultured in a light/dark cycle it develops a cycle of cell growth in the light cycle and cell division in the dark cycle. That is not the same as harvesting it, processing it, refrigerating it and packaging it. The phytoplankton maintains its nutritional value because it is dormant.
2. I did not add Chlorella in order to prevent hobbyist from using my product to culture their own, I added Chlorella to provide a larger particle size and additional nutrients. Multiple species cultures will be more nutritious because of the additional nutrients including micro-nutrients that are not omega3 fatty acids.
3. I was asked about some issues concerning the culture of phytoplankton and have answered truthfully, hobbyists who do not like the answers should do their own research. The fact is that I culture phytoplankton for a living and I was kind enough to pass along some important facts concerning what is necessary to produce high levels of fatty acids in Nannochloropsis. I did so in order to help hobbyists who want to raise fish larvae to be more successful. Nannochloropsis must be cultured within a specific salinity and temperature range. You need a good source of nutrients and trace metals in the proper proportions and the potency of vitamins do matter. I brought up the effects of culturing in a light/dark cycle because it effects the nutritional quality of the phytoplankton. There are other aspects that I could get into concerning the advantage of continuous culture over batch culture but it is a point for commercial operations such as my facility or a bivalve farm, not hobbyists. Culturing high quality phytoplankton is not difficult but it is not simple, culturing greenwater is. I do not want to get into a debate concerning the use of my product verses growing your own, that is not what I got into this discussion about. I do not expect the people who are growing their own to stop, I just want you to know what it takes to produce a higher quality food. I developed my product for use directly into reef tanks and have a process to clean and concentrate the phytoplankton.
 
Yes maybe I crossed the line. So Im sorry! take a look at Marine Fish and Reef 2002 Annual. Planktonic Foods, Live nanno is plotted on almost the same line as DT's.
 
Anthony, would you please thank Mr. Tagrin for all the great information, it is greatly appreciated. I've bookmarked this one for future reference.
 
I will be sure to do so my friends... we will all benefit from constructive dialogues (versus pot shots, speculation, etc.).

kindly,

Anth-
 
Very good thread. I have been culturing my own phyto for several years now. Ive tried many species but prefer Nannochloropsis. I mainly use for copepods, rotifers, brine shrimp etc.

I do believe DTs is better than using homegrown but ive always wondered how much. Mr Tagrin said the... "Nannochloropsis must be cultured within a specific salinity and temperature range". I have grown Nannochloropsis in freshwater with very good success. I am curious if he has any data on the difference in EPA values between a culture grown in fresh compared to sea water.

Im also curious as to how much of a drop in EPA levels are seen in cultures with higher temps (ie 75 degrees).
 
Hi Triterium,

Nannochloropsis is by far the easiest of the marine algae species to grow. It also represents about 90% of the algae used in marine fish hatcheries around the world. We have about 6 acres of Nannochloropsis in commercial production and have been experimenting with it for over 10 years to produce the highest fatty acid profiles. We've found the highest EPA values at between 22-26C, all other variables being equal. At that range we consistently maintain a lipid total of over 27%, and over 30% of that total being EPA. At 32C the lipid profile starts to fall pretty quickly.

This really is a great thread - Thank you Anthony for your insights.
 
Very interesting thread. I've been culturing my own from some minimal media I made in the lab. It seems easy to me but I also have grown various bugs for a living over the years. I clearly should read more after reading this.

I have been spinning down cultures in the lab centrifuge before I feed it to my tank. It seems I've a lot more pods than before I started feed phyto and this make my Mandarin fat and happy.

I believe that many home growers could just decant off liquid when they've noticed some phytoplankton settling to siginicantly reduce the amount of other stuff in their tank. Do 2 washes (refill with fresh saltwater) if you are really worried. When I am lazy and don't spin it down my macroalgea goes nuts. This makes me less worried about where all the fertizlizer goes, but I do not reccommend this.

Anybody have an oppinion what the best fertizilers is or a link to a thread. Currently I use some KNO3, NaPO4, trace metals (Cu, Zn, Mo, Fe), and some B vitamins. Add them to saltwater, microwave, and grow.

A good place to get cultures of numerous phyto species as well as culture kits is right up the road from me in the beautfiul state of Maine.

http://ccmp.bigelow.org/

Don't really have an oppinion what is better, home or purchased, I just do it becuase it is fun for me.
 
Hi Bunsenburner,

There is no question but what people can raise their own algae at home, but I have to wonder why they would want to? If you spent 5 minutes each day with your cultures then over a 3 month period you will have spent 7.5 hours. You can buy a bottle of algae concentrate with 4 algae species for $14 which will last 3-4 months. That breaks down to $0.16 or less per day. If you divide 7.5 hours of culturing time into $14 you are paying yourself $1.87 per hour. I'll bet your time is worth more than that - even your play time.

If you want to grow more than one species of algae you have to increase the amount of time you spend with your cultures. Let's say thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s now 10 minutes each day. You are now getting paid $0.93 per hours. And that's conservative because not all algae are as easy to grow as Nanno.

The two most important factors for microalgae are quality and nutritional profile. There has been a lot of talk on this thread about EPA, but thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s only one of the critical fatty acids. There are something like 20 fatty acids but the most important three are EPA, DHA, and ARA. (see here: http://www.reed-mariculture.com/microalgae/proximate2.asp )

EPA and ARA are found at the highest levels in green algae, but DHA is ONLY found in brown algae like Isochrysis and Pavlova. DHA is one of the building blocks of neural tissue and without it your animals can not be at their peak vibrancy.

By the way, Isochrysis and Pavlova can be kept alive in a refrigerator for far longer than 2 weeks. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve heard there is a study that somebody performed that claims only 2 weeks, but Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve never been able to get my hands on it. If they killed the Iso/Pav after only 2 weeks they did something very wrong.

Feeding your filter feeding organisms is much like feeding your dog or cat. You can take the time to make your own dog food, but itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s much easier to go to the store in buy a bag of Purina. You can grow your own algae, but itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s much easier to just buy it ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ especially since it is SO cheap.

My 2 cents
 
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i see no problem w/ buying algae. lots of people don't want to hassle w/ growing the stuff. however, the calculations in you post seem off to me. once a culture is going, it can be maintained in under 10mins/week (no exaggeration). the $14/bottle algae doesn't include shipping. 2nd day delivery to my zip would double the price, and that price is assuming 1 bottle will last 3-4 months for my 75g tank.

i'm not trying to knock down your product. i'm sure it's great for the people who want it. i just think you made a poor argument to convince growers to switch to buyers.

it is nice to see some competitive pricing in this market.
 
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