Culturing your own Phytoplankton

spawner said:
but Luis has special skills. ;)

No skills :p ,just need to take good care of my cultures.Living here,if I loose a culture,I am in deep sea to get it back across intl.borders:eek2: So I keep sterile stock cultures.

But Andy is right,you really donÃ"šÃ‚´t need to keep stock cultures living in USA.When a culture crahes,itÃ"šÃ‚´s a simple matter to order a new starter:cool:
 
Any ideas where to get good starts of T-iso and Rhodomonas? I got some starts from a commercial brand and they came with a green algae contaminant. Andy, i think you know the company im talking about. At $20 a culture, i feel like it should have been unicellular.

id rather not spend over $100 for an axenic culture.

I know FAFUSA has T-iso actually so maybe just a source that sells unicellualar cultures of rhodo
 
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minor update... I have chatted with several science/fisheries and industry friends that have done casual labwork on some of the phyto we've discussed here to date.

With chagrin I must admit that none of them (so far) feels comfortable to state their findings for fear of getting dragged into a lawsuit for either side of at least two prominent manufacturers. Sigh...

I can tell you that they are in agreement: at issue here is not (metabolically) alive product or not. Or even nutritive value, or not. The products reviewed ran the gamut of our definitions. This is all much as Dr Marini has stated here at RC and at hobby events, pers. comm., etc.

Therefore, there is no need for Dr. Boggs, Ms. Jedlicki, etc to culture out samples. (I know... this is not a news flash to most of y'all) :D

At issue then perhaps solely is the marketing for some product(s), toxicity issues aside. Nefarious intent or simply unclear... not clear enough to enough people... whatever. And that is a consumer advocacy issue that is well worth tackling! But not here in this thread. I may well take it up personally in fact, and I know of several other folks with the time and money inclined to do the same. No doubt the support is there for the establishment of some kind of consumer watchdog in our industry, for which there never really has been one. Rest assured y'all will hear of it when it hits the fan :D

Back on track: this thread has been well enough on topic for culturing issues. Kudos to all. Pardon the interruption :)
 
I'm looking to start culturing my own phyto. I have been doing copepods on DT's, and to be frank it's getting pretty expensive. After reading this thread I've learned that my home grown may not have as good of nutritional value as DT's, so I'm considering just feeding 50/50 home grown/DT's.

Anyone have suggestions for current articles on the best method for home culture?

What strain(s) would be best for my copepods? I learned here that Nann is not ideal for them, but what is?

Anyone have a good method to bottle the copepods? I have more than I need, and would like to spread them around my reef club...
 
I think the general consensus has been that culturing your own phyto for feeding pods and rots is economical as well as useful. When it comes to feeding them directly to your tank, the nutritional aspect comes into question.

:fish1::hammer:
 
scottfarcuz said:
After reading this thread I've learned that my home grown may not have as good of nutritional value as DT's

I hate to say this and restart the bitter debate of the nutritional convenience of using commercial algae instead of home grown,and be against the main stream of opinions played in this thread.

But I have to be honest and say that I donÃ"šÃ‚´t buy the concept.ThereÃ"šÃ‚´s no way a good alga strain,grown healthy and fed with the right nutrients,and harvested at the right time could be nutritionally inferior.There is just no way.



Regarding your pods,you didnÃ"šÃ‚´t say what are they.
 
Luis A M said:
But I have to be honest and say that I donÃ"šÃ‚´t buy the concept.ThereÃ"šÃ‚´s no way a good alga strain,grown healthy and fed with the right nutrients,and harvested at the right time could be nutritionally inferior.There is just no way.

i'm sure the commercial guys would love everyone to believe otherwise.

i'm in full agreement w/ you. i've followed this thread from the beginning & have seen all the claims of homegrown being inferior, but have seen no evidence to back up the claims.
 
Well Luis, since you are going to swim upstream, I'll join you: with caveats. ;)

I think that you can sucessfully culture good quality if you take a little time and start with quality ingredients. For instance, don't use miracle grow as the fertilizer, use a proper f2 formula. Miracle gro (or any other plant fertilizer) provides an unballanced nutrient base for algae. Garbage in, garbage out.

Also, if you have temperature control issues during certain times of the year, as I do, there are times when you may be better off using a comercial product. I learned this summer that once the water hits 30C your algae no longer has much of a HUFA content.

There are probably some other things you should be careful of that I can't remember or don't know, which is why it is probably a good idea to beg/buy/borrow a copy of Hoff's Plankton Culture Manual with your first order of culture supplies (thats my Christmas present to myself this year).

Culturing phyto is not for everyone. Give it a whirl and if whatever you are feeding your pods to thrives, you are OK.

If it turns out to be a pain, the comercial guys do know how to produce a consistantly high quality product. You really can't lose either way.


Fred
 
I think what it comes down to nutrition wise is that commercial products provide a variety of algae strains in a single product, rather than the typical single strain product that most DIYers produce. If you produce multiple, healthy strains, then I would imagine that your product would be comparable to a commercial product. A single, non-varietal algae will only provide so much in the ways of nutritional value.

:fish1::hammer:
 
I just finished reading this thread through, long read and very interesting. I did make my first attempt last winter at culturing phyto, I started with DT's after having read that it was possible, and after several attempts with cultures that never took off as the result using f2, I turned to FAF culture disks. I had better luck with the disks but still after a few weeks the cultures slowly crashed, probably a newbie mistake. Eventually I will try again as I would like to try my hand at rearing clownfish.

Anthony you mentioned way back in this thread about the amounts that aquarists are feeding their tanks as being an improper amount, I believe you said too much. Do you have any guidlines aside from whats printed on say a bottle of DT's, or would it be specifically a tank by tank basis and the kinds of animals that exist within? I'll try to find the quote.

Here it is found it on page 3 "Most folks overestimate just how much phyto is actually needed in a system. And as such... overestimate the expense of using commercial products in turn."
 
any particulate food must be measured on a case by case basic of course.

It really goes without saying. The mfg has no way of knowing what kind of nutrient export is going in in the consumers display (water changes, how much, or not?... skimmers working well or not, or not existing at all)... the ability of the consumer to finesse water flow to keep particulates in suspension for a maximum/optimal period of time, or not (sinking and polluting)... mechanical filtration trapping said food particles, then said food particles being rinsed/exported soon, or not (burdening water quality) etc.

I reckon the mfg guidelines for dosing phyto, feeding frozen or dry food, etc much like the warnings on a a cup of fast-food take-out coffee: it's obvious that the cup and contents are hot ;) And you are the best person to judge when it is cool enough to drink and how much to drink at a sip, etc :D

That all said... following the mfg rec's, we often see a new (uninformed/ignorant) aquarist with a young tank with a lower than average number or mass of filterfeeders than the "typical" display of the same filter-feeding reef inverts who likely will be overfeeding the phyto (and other foods). Badly sometimes.

We can't fault the mfg. They can only provide an educated estimate based on some average... and pray that we (consumers) use some common sense to finesse it for our individual systems.

And so... we should IMO treat dosing phyto like dosing Iodine, other food products, nutritive matter: add small and sparingly at first (I suggest half mfg dose) and then slowly push the envelope in time.

With Iodine eg., if you increase slowly over time to excess, you will eventially see an undesirable increase in brown diatom growth when you've crossed the threshold for iodine demand in your system. Indeed, in excess, something (diatoms in this case) will fluorish and exploit the boon. So we simply back down to the last known "safe" dose and ride it for a while until we think the need for iodine in the system has increased (biomass increase), when we can increase the dose slightly and see if the system sustains it (no pest or nuisance organisms flare).

In the case of excess phyto, we typically see a surge in sponges, fanworms, vermetid snails, and other filter- or mucus feeding organisms.

Look to such indicating organisms for guidance on if you are applying a useful or excessive amount of phyto.
 
Could feeding phyto be considered a sort of one way street, you start slow and as the amount of living organisms that consume it increase you can then increase the amount you feed, but if you were to suddenly stop the result would be starvation and death for these populations which in turn could cause ammonia spikes and a seemingly unexplainable tank crash?
Interesting example with the iodine I've never heard it explained that way.
 
Graveyardworm,

I think you'll find that plates are not the best way for most people to start a culture. They are best used for isolating a strain of algae. For the average person, taking algae off a plate and making a test tube starter is too much work and there is too much room for error. Plus, plates that are homogenous, 100% covered in algae don't help out at all. The idea behind plating algae is to see and move individual stains or cells as much as possible. This is very similar to the way you plate out bacteria cultures to ID them, if its too dense then you can't see anything other than a central mass. Many times plates can be more contaminated than a good starter liquid. I think you would have better success obtain a very clean starter, a few hundred mL vs. a plate.

Just about anyone can grow a few species very easily and with some reading and practice, as Luis has done, can keep a strain of algae for a long time. It's good pratice to renew your starter every few months or so to keep things clean.
 
Hi spawner,
I am still very new to phytoculture and so far my research (mostly from melev and flame angels sites), indicated that the easiest way to start a phytoculture was with the plates purchased from FAF. I havent opened all the links provided in this thread yet and so hadnt heard of a liquid starter culture until your post. Would it be possible to post/repost a link to where I can purchase liquid starter cultures. Also I would like to start culturing rotifiers is the best way from cysts or is there also another way available which may be better. Thanks

Sorry just checked FAF and noticed they also carry liquid starter cultures for both phyto and rotifs so I'll rephrase my question. Which phyto would be best to culture for both rots and tank feeding, and are liquid rotif starter culture better than cysts?
 
Florida Aqua Farms has both plates as well as liquid cultures. The advantage that plates have over liquid is that they are easiter to ship (not paying for water weight) and last longer then their liquid counterparts. Otherwise, assuming that they are not contaminated, they are pretty much the same.
 
It might be a bit easier to ship a plate, but trust me, its much easier and cleaner to start a culture from cleaner starter cultures in a liquid form. The correct way to use a plate is to use it for isolation purposes, not storing algae. You can store strains for several months or even years in test tubes in the right conditions. Plates are only good for several weeks maybe a few months for some strains.

From the plate you should start test tube cultures, let them bloom up, then transfer that to small cultures working your way up to larger volumes. Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s much easier to start with a few 100mLs or so starter culture that can be used to for several 2L cultures. The more steps the person cuts out the less likelihood of problems. As long as you keep your main cultures clean you can back cross them for several months. It's a good idea to get new cultures every few months to keep things clean. Unless you have an autoclave and a good sterile technique contamination is a given. I have looked at cultures that appear healthy and growing ok only to find them heavily contaminated.

The problem with plates is that your plates are made from starter "pure" cultures and then you are reversing the process. Some one took a starter culture, made a plate, then your taking a plate and making a starter culture. That are a lot of extra steps, windows for contamination.

If you or the person that made the plates is not extremely careful or in each process to reach the larger volume if your not sterile, your culture is going to get a small amount of contamination in each step and you'll lose the battle to keep them clean. Taking a plate straight to large volume (a few liters) is asking for problems. It might work for Nanno but not many other species are that weedy and it doesn't work all the time for everyone. Many people have had bad luck growing algae for this reason.

Plates are best used when you can see the individual culture strains, again very similar to what a microbiologist would do to isolate bacteria.
 
spawner said:

I have looked at cultures that appear healthy and growing ok only to find them heavily contaminated.

what are you examining the cultures with?
what contaminates are you finding?
& why are these contaminates bad?

thanks,
shane
 
graveyardworm... you are correct my friend. If you add an increasing amount of nutrients/food (phyto in this case) over time to support increasing colonies of X organisms, then indeed you have a mass with a minimum threshold/needs for survival. If you abruptly reduce said nutrients... the dependants will obviously suffer some attrition.

We see this will folks that foolishly culture massive quanties of Caulerpa but do not really know how they are doing it and then they are surprised when the demands of the matter exceed the systems resources (available nutrients) and it all crashes suddenly, and often catastrophically to other livestock in the tank. :(

That will not happen with starving fanworms ;) But... if you grew large amounts of sponge in part on phyto feeding, you could have a tragic crash if you failed to meet the increasing demands of said filter-feeder. Poriferans are indeed some of the most noxious organisms in the sea... its no wonder whay they are aggressively scrubbed off of live rock before export. It's more than a fouling (decay) issue. They are largely toxic.

I frankly enjoy the worms, snails and sponges very much. So I simply feed a small but consistent measure of phyto to my systems to maintain a moderate population. Keeping it in check as it were and not depriving them by waning or stopping the flow.
 
Anthony Calfo said:
We see this with folks that foolishly culture massive quanties of Caulerpa but do not really know how they are doing it and then they are surprised when the demands of the matter exceed the systems resources (available nutrients) and it all crashes suddenly, and often catastrophically to other livestock in the tank. :(

Are you referring to those that let it grow unchecked in a fuge or something and don't harvest it regularly?

:fish1::hammer:
 
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