Cupramine and Cloudy water

[scuzy]

I recently setup a QT tank at the beginning of March and have started the cycled with some live rocks and a sponge from my DT. It's sat in cycled for over 4 weeks as i went on vacation. Now I bought a majestic and a Sohal tang last week and got them in the QT. When i noticed that sohal had some ich on him i started to dose Cupramine. Today is day 3 of medication and I notice my water is really cloudy. Anyone know what could be the cause of this?


I am thinking of changing out 20 gallons of water tonight and reapply the same amount of cupramine in the change water as i did in the QT. My QT is 55 gallon tank so i did 80 drops initial dose and yesterday i ramped it up half dose of 40 drops which should leave me at 0.37mg of cupramine in my QT tank.

If i change out hte 20 gallons of water should i premix the cupramine to the same level?

Thanks for any help guys.

Andy

 

[scuzy]

another question is if my QT = 55G currently has 120 drops of cupramine in it and if i change 20 gallons out i will need to drop approximately 43 drops into the new change water
is that correct? If my math is right 55G/120 = 20G/X so 55G(X) = 2400G so X ~= 43 drops

 

[MrTuskfish]

If you still have the LR in your QT; the Cupramine killed all of the sponges and other inverts in the LR. Have you tested your QT for ammonia? A QT should not have LR or substrate; or anything else that can absorb the copper. You really need a SeaChem copper test kit to properly dose Cupramine, they are made by the same mfg to be compatible. Counting drops is a very poor way of monitoring copper levels. Also, you don't have "cycled water" ; a tank is cycled. When you remove the living space for friendly bacteria , like LR, your tank is no longer cycled. Remember, a 55 gal tank does not have 55 gals of water; here's a neat place to estimate actual water in any system: http://reef.diesyst.com/volcalc/volcalc.html

 

[scuzy]

Actually i removed all the LR from the tank prior to dosing cupramine in the system. The only thing running on the QT is a Magnum HOT filter filled with ceramic blocks and a small sponge filter. and a large PVC housing i made for fish to hide in. I followed the direction on the bottle 16 drops ~= 1ml per 10.5 gallons so 80 drops is roughly 50 gallons of water. Is that not correct?

 

[waeleldasher]

Actually there is no need to cycle a QT that's gonna run copper because it will kill all bacteria.

What I had to do with Cupramine is perform a 50% PWC daily. That's how I was able to control the NH4 and NO3. It's incredibly exhausting to do this for 2 weeks, which is why the second time I decided on hypo salinity. But I do believe that copper is stronger and more effective, but it's also harder on the fish.

There are few options when it comes to water quality. One is to run Seachem's Prime, but you'll need to contact them to ensure its OK to do so with Cupramine, or secondly is to perform about 50% PWC daily, then add the removed copper.

I recall having to almost double the dosage you're running to get near the 0.5mg/l recommendation. In reality, I found that at about 0.3mg/l the effects were apparent.

Hope this helps.

cheers

Wael

 

[scuzy]

well the initial dosage was approximately 80 drop = 5ml for a 55 gallon tank. and i was suppose to redose 80 drops to get to 0.5mg/l but i only redose 40 drops so far. I think i will do a 20 gallon water change tonight and readd the appropriate cupramine loss due to water change.

 

[waeleldasher]

Oh...and you must have the copper testing kit. Cupramine is non-chelated copper. You'll need a kit thats sensitive enough. Chelated copper runs to 0.3mg to be effective. Non-Chelated has a wider cushion, so it's safer, but you must add more to achieve the same effect. I found the Sera Copper kit good because it's gradient measurement worked for the range I needed.

cheers

Wael

 

[waeleldasher]

well the initial dosage was approximately 80 drop = 5ml for a 55 gallon tank. and i was suppose to redose 80 drops to get to 0.5mg/l but i only redose 40 drops so far. I think i will do a 20 gallon water change tonight and readd the appropriate cupramine loss due to water change.

I know I'm gonna get a lot of negative comments for what I'm about to say, but if 0.3mg/l gets rid of the ich, I see no need to raise the copper to 0.5mg/l, especially if the ich is mild.

Since you didn't put the fish in the DT then there is no ich in there for you to wait for to run it's cycle. That means after the copper treatment, clean out the QT (wash it and use white vinegar) and observe the fish and transfer them to DT when you feel it's safe enough.

cheers

Wael

 

[MrTuskfish]

Actually there is no need to cycle a QT that's gonna run copper because it will kill all bacteria.

What I had to do with Cupramine is perform a 50% PWC daily. That's how I was able to control the NH4 and NO3. It's incredibly exhausting to do this for 2 weeks, which is why the second time I decided on hypo salinity. But I do believe that copper is stronger and more effective, but it's also harder on the fish.

There are few options when it comes to water quality. One is to run Seachem's Prime, but you'll need to contact them to ensure its OK to do so with Cupramine, or secondly is to perform about 50% PWC daily, then add the removed copper.

I recall having to almost double the dosage you're running to get near the 0.5mg/l recommendation. In reality, I found that at about 0.3mg/l the effects were apparent.

Hope this helps.

cheers

Wael

Cupramine will NOT destroy a bacteria filter. Its very common for wholesalers, LFS, etc, to run copper and a bio-filter at all times. I've talked to SeaChem tech support about this a couple of times. It may "degrade" it a little, but it should remain functional. I have an easy way to cycle my QT and have done so dozens of times with never an ammonia problem. BTW, I never do WCs in QT and I QT every fish with Cupramine.I never clean my QT after use either, Cuprisorb will remove all measurable traces of copper. However, mixing Cupramine with ammonia-neutralizing products, like Ammo-Lock or Prime, creates a toxic by-product. (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1997077)

 

[waeleldasher]

Cupramine will NOT destroy a bacteria filter. I've talked to SeaChem tech support about this a couple of times. It may "degrade" it a little, but it should remain functional. I have an easy way to cycle my QT and have done so dozens of times with never an ammonia problem. However, mixing Cupramine with ammonia-neutralizing products, like Ammo-Lock or Prime, creates a toxic by-product. (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1997077)

That's news to me! It seems everyone on other forums are convinced that any whiff of copper kill all the bacteria. It's almost like a blast goes off in your tank. I'm exaggerating of course, but that's the essence of what's conveyed. I'm glad to know that Prime can't be used with copper. It would be good to know if it can be used during hypo.

 

[MrTuskfish]

That's news to me! It seems everyone on other forums are convinced that any whiff of copper kill all the bacteria. It's almost like a blast goes off in your tank. I'm exaggerating of course, but that's the essence of what's conveyed. I'm glad to know that Prime can't be used with copper. It would be good to know if it can be used during hypo.

Yeah, one thing about this hobby: things change so fast that rumors, ideas, facts, etc, become mixed up. Cupramines bottle says it won't contaminate the filter bed. I know you have to take statements like these with a grain of salt; but SeaChem enjoys very good standing in the hobby. If hobbyists were showing up at every LFS with dead fish and the Cupramine bottle; I doubt that wording would remain. I do believe what SeaChem says though, their Tech Support is among the best. Like I said on another thread, I'm becoming convinced that Quinine Sulfate has become the best way to treat ich. I have to try it, though.

 

[scuzy]

I ordered some Crypto-pro but i won't use it on these 2 little guys. I will do so on my next specimen which is a powder blue tang. So far both of these two are taking the cupramine well and the seachem ammo badge shows no danger level. the only thing is the water is a bit cloudy i guess it comes with the territory. I did at a air stone with a bubbler in the tank to give more oxygen for the fishes. If my ammonia tests and badge shows it's save levels i will leave the tank be and not change the water yet. Does anyone know if running a skimmer on this system will have any effect on the cupramine treatment ?

 

[geaux xman]

my QT water is cloudy and yellow too, but i dont know if its from the prazipro or the cupramine.

 

[scuzy]

Geaux: but how are your fish doing ?

 

[MrTuskfish]

I ordered some Crypto-pro but i won't use it on these 2 little guys. I will do so on my next specimen which is a powder blue tang. So far both of these two are taking the cupramine well and the seachem ammo badge shows no danger level. the only thing is the water is a bit cloudy i guess it comes with the territory. I did at a air stone with a bubbler in the tank to give more oxygen for the fishes. If my ammonia tests and badge shows it's save levels i will leave the tank be and not change the water yet. Does anyone know if running a skimmer on this system will have any effect on the cupramine treatment ?

I've never heard of using a skimmer in QT. Skimming's benefit is long-term, so I can see no reason to use it. It may add more oxygen, though.

Here's a copy of how I cycle a QT. Never an ammonia problem with Cupramine.
"In regards to Qt cycling; I've done this for years. Get a HOB filter; I really like Aqua-Clear, they have a big sponge and last forever. Don't use the carbon or ceramic noodles that come with the filter. Also, have some extra sponges on hand, they're cheap. Keep a sponge in the flow somewhere in your DT. When you need a QT or HT, just use the sponge that has been in your main system in your QT filter---the QT will be instantly cycled. When done, toss the sponge and keep a new one ready in your main system.
BTW, Cupramine copper, used in a QT,will not destroy a bio-filter."

 

[geaux xman]

Geaux: but how are your fish doing ?

actually i just took the ~4" emperor angel juvie out today. i had a ~4" adult blueface in there too for about 21days of 0.5 cupramine.

had it in a 40g breeder and i kept about 25lbs of LR(rock that only had beneficial bacteria), a PH and a HOB filter. the rock will remain the in the QT tank and never touch the DT.

i only did 1 30% WC the entire time. i did moniter ammonia and never had any problems. i fed 2-3x/day heavy feeding.

 

[scuzy]

Cool that sounds good. So far the two are eating the nori and pellets i feed them so i think they are adjusting ok to the cupramine. I will be monitoring the ammonia levels.

 

[MrTuskfish]

actually i just took the ~4" emperor angel juvie out today. i had a ~4" adult blueface in there too for about 21days of 0.5 cupramine.

had it in a 40g breeder and i kept about 25lbs of LR(rock that only had beneficial bacteria), a PH and a HOB filter. the rock will remain the in the QT tank and never touch the DT.

i only did 1 30% WC the entire time. i did moniter ammonia and never had any problems. i fed 2-3x/day heavy feeding.

Good! How was the fish's appetite while being treated? That has always been another concern with copper; but I never notice any eating problems when I treat them. When get a new fish, I treat with Prazi-pro on day 1 and make sure the fish is eating before starting preventative Cupramine. I've 3-4 fish, tops (out of lots, I'd have to check my log) that seemed to show a reduced appetite, but nothing major.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I know I'm gonna get a lot of negative comments for what I'm about to say, but if 0.3mg/l gets rid of the ich, I see no need to raise the copper to 0.5mg/l, especially if the ich is mild.


cheers

Wael

Good question. I think even lower levels than .3 can often be effective. (I use .25 on dwarf angels) There are some sources who seem to think some ich strains are more drug resistant than others....like the new strains of strep bacteria that need new antibiotics. So maybe .5 will just get more of them. In any case, when treating parasites, IMO, only a 100% kill rate is good enough. I know the concerns about copper and long range fish health, but my experience just doesn't show a problem; I've kept lots of fish for 10+ yrs after copper treatment. However, I'd rather kill a fish with too much copper (hasn't happened yet, IMO) than get one parasite into any of my DTs.

 

[scuzy]

Thanks for the input MrTusk. I think i'll increase the dose to full .5 tomorrow. No need to hurry the dose i guess. Maybe not following the direction to the T on the bottle but i think leaving them in there for 3 weeks is best anyways. Now my question is why is my water cloudy?