Cupramine and HLLE

[Navyblue]

My QT caught ich and I am treating it with Cupramine.

The instruction says 0.5 ppm at 14 days. ATJ's site says 0.5 ppm 21 days.

Today is the 11th day of dosing and the sixth day at 0.6 ppm.

I know it's higher than 0.5 ppm as recommended but initially I was having problem with keeping up with the copper level and I thought that it will drop to 0.5 ppm in time, which it didn't. And I thought that I'd keep it that way, if it drops a bit I can have some leeway so that it doesn't drop below 0.5 ppm. Seachem says most fishes can tolerate up to 0.8 ppm so I thought it is not too big of an issue.

There is a purple tang in there that got HLLE a few days ago, which is worseing day by day. It seems that I read somewhere that copper can cause tangs to develop HLLE.

Since the parasite can not stay on the fish for more than 7 days, I was wondering would it be wise if I take the purple tang to my main tank on the 8th day. So that it is less stressful for and allow it to recover faster. All the fishes in there seems to be cleared of white spots a few days ago.

I'd hate to lose the tang to copper. Btw I just lost a bicolor angel and a flasher wrasse to copper which were quarantined together with the purple tang.

 

[Hattie B]

Hi Navy,

Were thse fish in your main tank when they got ich?

The parasites feed then fall off then reinfect.

The problem with moving him back into the main if that is where they got it then it is not enough time (the fallow tank) to break the lifecycle of the parasite.

If these guys were new and one had ich in QT and then the others got it then you run the risk of exposing the main to the parasite. Either way the QT needs to be longer.

If it were me I would not move him into the main. I would however, if he is stressed go and get a another cheap QT for just him (at any wal-mart tanks are like 10-15 bucks).

Are you feeding lots of greens still? I would also add vitamines like zoe, selecon esc.. to the food to help with the immune system.

Are there any places in your QT for them to hide, like PVC or a clay pot or something like that?

Its hard beucase they are already out and you need the main tank clear and not infected with the parasite if you introduce the fish back in.

Also, what about the ammonia? Are you testing that? Are you sure it HLLE the start of it or an ammoina burn?

 

[Navyblue]

Thanks Hattie.

They were all new fishes in the QT.

Ammonia is 0 the last time I measured (after I coppered). I am also adding those bacteria in a bottle just in case. And ther fishes appears fine too.

There are also plastic decor for the fishes to cruise/hide in and out.

I am feeding formula 2 flake, tetra marine granules, kelp, nori, blended seafood and hair algae from my main tank. He loves all except for the kelp and nori, which he take a nip or two just occasionally. I couldn't get selcon here locally, I have been including lots of oily salmon to compensate for that.

My concern with the new QT is that it might take a few days for the biological filter to kick in, I don't know if he can last that long. I have lost many fishes to copper and not one due to ich. They would look ok and active but only to find them dead in the morning, even for fishes which are not supposed to be copper sensitive like wrasses. I'd hate to see this happening again.

It is my understanding that Seachem's recommendation of 14 days is only to remove all trophonts from the fish by killing all theronts before they could reach the fish as theoretically 14-21 days would not be sufficient to kill all the tomonts. Since trophonts lives up to a maximum of 7th days on the fish, why do we need to treat for 14 or even 21 days? I guess they are just play safe figures. Unless 7 day is only a theoretical text book number which is not true in fact. How do they come out with the number like 14 and 21 anyway?

Anyway, my personal observation is the full cycle appears to be 2-3 days (where I see ich and then dissapeared and then appear again) as the fish seems to be cleared with no reinfection even before I even reach the recommended concentration.

 

[Hattie B]

I am not sure where they got 14 to 21 days. Probably depends on infection rates and types of fish they used when making the label.

I would personally assume it kinda like anything else, like you said. Like tatking a full course of antibotics even when you feel better just to make sure.

And I believe you are correct; I have seen most ich attach feed and fall of in a few days.

Since you see them and are monitering them, you should do what you feel is best for the fish. However, since you know they have ich and are already doing QT, I don't think I would add them to yor main. QT is a little extra work but if you put him in your main and he is still infected, it becomes a lot of extra work.. But, you could reduce the copper and watch them and see how it goes. It would be up to your judgement.
I would hate to see you lose another one too.

Amber

 

[Navyblue]

Thanks again Amber.

I guess I'll cut down the copper level and monitor them. Seachem says 0.2 ppm is sufficient to kill the ich, I've also heard many that maintains at 0.4 ppm instead of 0.5 ppm. I'll see how it goes.

I see that you hang out a lot at this forum, I find it very interesting, I believe that for most people this is not their favorite forum, hence the relatively low traffic. I also wonder if your work is fish related? What ever is the case, we need more people like you.

 

[TerryB]

I can't prove it at this point but I have noted an increase in HLLE when using copper. Cupramine at .4ppm will work but .2ppm is too low. I don't use any copper for ich anymore. Hyposalinity works great when used correctly and it is not stressful to the fish like copper is. Check the permanent threads here on Cryptocaryon (ich) and read about hyposalinity.

TerryB

TerryB