cupramine question

[superman85]

Hi. I have a 175 gallon tank, fish only, live rock, no corals or inverts. I only have 3 fish of now, and my angel is acting strange, has weird brown spots, and my other two fish are pretty lethargic.

They eat, but my lfs advised I run cupramine in there to clear up anything in there. I live in a condo, so a qt is out of the question for now. Going forward, I will set one up at a friends house nearby.

So I put cupramine in yesterday, at the recommended dose (1 ml for 10.5 gallons of water= 17 ml) Will wait 48 hours and do it again. My question is, it says not to add any additives in there that can make this copper a toxic form (dechorinators etc) , I haven't added any of that in, but I did about two weeks ago when I did a water change, for my RO unit needed servicing.

So my question is, would that dechorinator additive I added two weeks ago, still count towards this cupramine, or would it have discipated by now? The last two water changes I did, 15 percent, were done with RO.

And last, the porcupine puffer I have in there, acted sorta squirelly yesterday when I added the cupramine. It wasn't instant, but a few hours later, seems fine now. Is that typical for fish to show some akward behavior when adding this?

I do have about 50 lbs of liverock, with a 2 inch sand bed. According to seachem, the product wont adversely effect biological filtration. It also states the rock wont absorb it. I will get a test today to see if the levels are appropriate, what do you think?

This tank will never have coral, been there done that, and this rock will never have coral or inverts. So is it still risky having rock leach copper out after, even if it remains a fish only tank?

Appreciated in advance

 

[MrTuskfish]

Your LFS guy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. The de-chlor should be gone by now. But dosing Cupramine as a cure-all is never a good idea. It kills parasites and some parasitic worms and the symptoms your fish has don't sound like either. I would run carbon to remove the copper and try to find out what's wrong with the fish.

We could sure use more info .Water params, especially ammonia? Anything added recently? Why the use of de-chlor and how much? Etc. Copper is great when its used for specific parasites; but it is still a very toxic med; lions can be especially sensitive. I am familiar with SeaChem's Cupramine page and have never read that Cu will not be absorbed by LR. Could you point out where you read this?

If you can't define any real symptoms your fish are showing; the only med I'd ever use in a DT as a "cure-all" is Prazi-Pro. It kills flukes and other internal and external worms and is very safe. But again, I'd sure get the Cu out. Flukes just may be the problem, but I suspect a water problem.

 

[sleepydoc]

+1 to Steve's comments. I'd also look at getting a hospital tank; it's far easier (& cheaper) to dose a smaller volume.

 

[MrTuskfish]

+1 to Steve's comments. I'd also look at getting a hospital tank; it's far easier (& cheaper) to dose a smaller volume.

Definitely! IMO, a QT/HT is a vital piece of equipment, not just something that's nice to have.

 

[ReeferBill]

Never dose copper in a tank with live rock, you will kill the live stuff and ruin the rock!!!!!

 

[superman85]

Your LFS guy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. The de-chlor should be gone by now. But dosing Cupramine as a cure-all is never a good idea. It kills parasites and some parasitic worms and the symptoms your fish has don't sound like either. I would run carbon to remove the copper and try to find out what's wrong with the fish.

We could sure use more info .Water params, especially ammonia? Anything added recently? Why the use of de-chlor and how much? Etc. Copper is great when its used for specific parasites; but it is still a very toxic med; lions can be especially sensitive. I am familiar with SeaChem's Cupramine page and have never read that Cu will not be absorbed by LR. Could you point out where you read this?

If you can't define any real symptoms your fish are showing; the only med I'd ever use in a DT as a "cure-all" is Prazi-Pro. It kills flukes and other internal and external worms and is very safe. But again, I'd sure get the Cu out. Flukes just may be the problem, but I suspect a water problem.

Thanks for the input. Based on the symptoms I described to my lfs, who has been doing this for 20 years or so, and is referred by many people I know, he suggested, before adding fish in my tank, use cupramine.

The symptoms are as follow: Angel fish- blotch brown color throughout body. Does some scratching, but never constant.

Yellow tang: eats, but hides and is pretty lazy . Appetite not crazy strong like it once was.

Lunar wrassel; used to be open water swimmer constantly, now just at food time. Doesn't eat like the horse he used to.

Last fish I added was a lion fish a few weeks ago, and died of sudden cause within 2 days. Was thinking he brought something into tank.

I am also sorry to announce, my puffer succumbed this morning, without question of copper being the cause. I am not happy about it at all, however, with 3 fish in the tank, and no activity level, and blotched colors, I have to assume something is in the tank.

Beyond frustrated, and wanting to right the ship.

Parameter: Salinity with refractometer- 1.022, temp 76, 0 ammonia, via multiple test kits, nitrite 0, again by multiple kits. and Nitrates between 20 and 40. PH 8.1.

I asked my lfs about the live rock being ruined and he laughed. He pointed to his display reef tank, 220 gallon, loaded with all sorts of corals, and said that once was his fish only tank, including the rock. He said he treated the tank multiple times, years ago, before it was a reef tank, with copper, and said "as you can see, the tank has been a coral tank for 7 years, and looks to me like there isn't a problem". Which I had to agree, it is a quite beautiful tank.

I would definitely not risk the rock with coral, and I know for sure I have no interest in a coral tank.

As far as dechorinator, my RO system developed a leak, and decided to order a new one. It took about two weeks to get, so the water changes I did were with tap water, and dechorinator (api stress zyme)

 

[superman85]

Just one more thought, I had a plan to add a few more high dollar fish. Even though there "maybe" nothing wrong with tank, I had to mentally make sure it was right before I add them to a lethargic tank.

One other parameter, flow rate, GPH, which was measured after head pressure, is 1100 gph. Which is roughly 6x an hour turn over rate.

The following below is from seachems website:

Q: I'm using Cupramineâ„¢ and my ammonia test kit is showing ammonia off the scale. What is going on?
A: Ammonia test kits can not distinguish ammonia from the amine based complex present in Cupramineâ„¢ and will therefore give a false high reading for ammonia while using Cupramineâ„¢. Our Ammonia Alertâ„¢ and MultiTest: Free & Total Ammoniaâ„¢ test kit do not suffer from this problem as they utilize a gas exchange technology that can distinguish ammonia from amines.
Cupramine would be more effective at the suggested dose of .5 ppm (or close to it), but has been noted as being effective for some between .25 and .4 ppm. If you are in treatment range ich should subside in about a two week time frame. As more of the parasite goes through it's life cycle a few spots may show up a few days after the first addition, but typically do not. If you have dosed the first dose accordingly the copper level should be close to .25 ppm. Live Rock and sand can absorb copper meds in general, but Cupramine in an established system should not be absorbed by the live rock or substrate.

 

[superman85]

Mr. Tuskfish-

One other note, the lion fish I bought from my lfs, died within 3 days. He had brought in two, same sized volitan lion fish (large). They came in at same time, mine died on Friday, his died two days later. He suspected a parasite, an shortly after, two of his tangs had ich. He coppered the tank, as I am now, with coppersafe, and the fish are fine now. He believed the lionfish could have very well came in with something.

 

[HumbleFish]

The following below is from seachems website:
Live Rock and sand can absorb copper meds in general, but Cupramine in an established system should not be absorbed by the live rock or substrate.

Who writes this stuff?! Before I switched over to bare bottom, I used to QT all my fish old school using an u/g filter, crushed coral substrate and rocks for hiding places. And I used Cupramine in there... A LOT. When I was done, I would do (almost) a 100% WC; vacuuming out the gravel, leaving just a little bit of water covering the gravel where I knew my bacteria was. I would re-fill the tank with freshly mixed s/w in anticipation of my next shipment of fish.

If I tested the Cu right after that, levels were undetectable. But within a week the Cu level would be back up to 0.25, without me even adding any! I'd have to run a polyfilter. Where would the Cu be coming from if not leaching back out from the substrate and rocks??

 

[Deinonych]

Who writes this stuff?! Before I switched over to bare bottom, I used to QT all my fish old school using an u/g filter, crushed coral substrate and rocks for hiding places. And I used Cupramine in there... A LOT. When I was done, I would do (almost) a 100% WC; vacuuming out the gravel, leaving just a little bit of water covering the gravel where I knew my bacteria was. I would re-fill the tank with freshly mixed s/w in anticipation of my next shipment of fish.

If I tested the Cu right after that, levels were undetectable. But within a week the Cu level would be back up to 0.25, without me even adding any! I'd have to run a polyfilter. Where would the Cu be coming from if not leaching back out from the substrate and rocks??

+1

Here's a great explanation of how rocks adsorb Cu+ and release it back into solution over time. I personally would not use it with LR and/or substrate.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22286145&postcount=33

 

[MrTuskfish]

Just one more thought, I had a plan to add a few more high dollar fish. Even though there "maybe" nothing wrong with tank, I had to mentally make sure it was right before I add them to a lethargic tank.

One other parameter, flow rate, GPH, which was measured after head pressure, is 1100 gph. Which is roughly 6x an hour turn over rate.

The following below is from seachems website:

Q: I'm using Cupramine™ and my ammonia test kit is showing ammonia off the scale. What is going on?
A: Ammonia test kits can not distinguish ammonia from the amine based complex present in Cupramine™ and will therefore give a false high reading for ammonia while using Cupramine™. Our Ammonia Alert™ and MultiTest: Free & Total Ammonia™ test kit do not suffer from this problem as they utilize a gas exchange technology that can distinguish ammonia from amines.
Cupramine would be more effective at the suggested dose of .5 ppm (or close to it), but has been noted as being effective for some between .25 and .4 ppm. If you are in treatment range ich should subside in about a two week time frame. As more of the parasite goes through it's life cycle a few spots may show up a few days after the first addition, but typically do not. If you have dosed the first dose accordingly the copper level should be close to .25 ppm. Live Rock and sand can absorb copper meds in general, but Cupramine in an established system should not be absorbed by the live rock or substrate.

Here is the answer from the Cupramine site that follows the question you have posted. There is no mention of LR: 4th Q. in the FAQ section.
(http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine.html)
Q: I'm using Cupramine™ and my ammonia test kit is showing ammonia off the scale. What is going on?

A: Ammonia test kits can not distinguish ammonia from the amine based complex present in Cupramine™ and will therefore give a false high reading for ammonia while using Cupramine™. Our Ammonia Alert™ and MultiTest: Free & Total Ammonia™ test kit do not suffer from this problem as they utilize a gas exchange technology that can distinguish ammonia from amines.

 

[superman85]

I definitely did find that bit of info on there website. It may have been in a support question where a tech answered it.

I am not overall concerned with the LR, just because I know I will never do coral again.

As far as the quarantine tank someone mentioned, where after nearly a 100 percent water change, the copper level rose a week later.

That puzzles the **** out of me, and if I was hardpressed for an answer, perhaps whatever filtration was in there, and the water left in tank for bacteria, possessed enough of it to give you a reading.

One thing I do know in my two days of using it, the scale is damn near impossible to distinguish small variances. .1 and .5 look different, but numbers in between there are very very hard to tell the difference.

So Mr. tuskfish, if I use the copper, like I just did, and run it two weeks, then place carbon in sump, with multiple water changes, what is the downfall of doing that?

There will never be corals or inverts in my life time in there, so if there are always trace amount left over leaking from rock, is that an issue? Im thinking in time, with carbon and wc's, it would be minimal. Besides doesn't natural seawater have a .03 level to begin with?