Radicalrob1982
Member
Not very deep. Like 1 inch average.
Cyano and nutrients
- Thread starter Radicalrob1982
- Start date
I tend to be overly cautious. I personally would remove small amounts of the sand bed over a period of time.
Radicalrob1982
Member
For sure. I’ve been losing sand over time from water changes. But ur right. Slow is the best approach to avoid shocking the system
Radicalrob1982
Member
Hi all. Just updating.
Haven’t done the sand thing yet due to time constraints. However, I got a bottle of seachem zooplankton.
Been dosing half cap every morning for about 5 days. So far no real or negligible increase in the cyano but my corals are starting to look fabulous. Not where I want them to be but overall much healthier
I’m gonna keep going with this approach. I see two possible benefits coming from this. Larger healthier corals that soak up excess nutrients and food for a broader diversity of organisms that help out compete other nasties.
Will be sure to keep everyone updated as to how it goes over time
Haven’t done the sand thing yet due to time constraints. However, I got a bottle of seachem zooplankton.
Been dosing half cap every morning for about 5 days. So far no real or negligible increase in the cyano but my corals are starting to look fabulous. Not where I want them to be but overall much healthier
I’m gonna keep going with this approach. I see two possible benefits coming from this. Larger healthier corals that soak up excess nutrients and food for a broader diversity of organisms that help out compete other nasties.
Will be sure to keep everyone updated as to how it goes over time
Radicalrob1982
Member
Wanted add I got two cheap power heads off Amazon for increased flow as well. This is also likely assisting.
That’s a way way better approach IMM.
Cyano is a bacteria. It, and its algae counterpart (Dino’s) thrive in out of balance, and/or unstable waters.
Putting waters stable in terms of salinity, temp and Alk as well as providing nitrate and phosphate in balanced quantities, along with exactly what your doing will “speed” the development of what I call good guy algae and bacteria’s, which are slow to develop, but, when in certain populations, keeps rocks clean and sand beds white with no help from you. I’ve not touched sand in years, the processors (mainly unseen) do that job.
Radicalrob1982
Member
I have also noted that my pod population has been improving. Could see them on the glass tonight when I got home. Must be the introduction of that tiny plankton food particles.
However, sand is getting a bit dustier with the red cyano (not bad by any means). I may just start dosing bi-daily instead daily to ensure the opposite bacteria’s have time to grow and I don’t over pollute
It took me about 6 weeks before the pest stuff just disappeared over about 3 days.
I never saw this post of yours and in my log I've been fighting cyano since about July 3rd of this year. I do believe mine is cyano rather than simply diatoms because of the way it started to sheet up when it got really bad. this happened when I was going through all the rigmarole that you also listed off such as water changes, the seachem seed, and even dr tims, etc.
Looking back over the years I found that dosing things like phyto (live or not), reef roids, AB+, and just about any coral food could lead to an increase in what I thought was diatoms, but now I sorta think was early stage cyano. By starving the tank a bit it would clear up naturally in my 5 year old system. For instance, I wanted my corals to explode so I feed reef roids (or whatever coral food du jour). and then the next day I see a dusting of red across the sand. once I made the correlation I'd stop feeding the reef roids until it disappeared. feed again, it's back.
anyways on this current situation I went into a completely light blackout period for a day or 2. But I didn't like the damage to the corals so I started turning the light on for 4 hours or so in the evening. Now, I have my lights come on at 2pm and turn off at normal sunset time (I believe it starts around 7pm). My corals are looking fantastic for the first time in 6 weeks as of last night.
But I still have this issue of zero nitrates etc. So what I've been doing in conjunction with lowering my light period is feeding the tank, cautiously, my AB+. I'm now out of AB+ (finished today) and I probably won't re-order. But tonight I'll assess what the tank looks like. if corals are happy and the cyano is still not coming back strong, then I'll continue this 1/2 light exposure for a little while and I may MAY bring back reef roids.
But at the very least I've been feeding my fish normal, they get two frozen food cubes a day, a nori strip inconsistently, maybe every other day, and I will continue to boost my pod population, CUC, etc. I also want to increase my bioload a little bit (more fish) before adding more corals.
long story short: My only solution to cyano after doing everything you did coincidentally, has been less light. and my solution to feeding the system has been to do it during lights out period. I think I tend to over light my tank and over feed my tank in an overzealous effort to see my corals grow faster.
disclaimer, my 5 year old system crashed in January and this system I'm talking about is only about 4+ months old. 2nd cycle was way harder than the first and it was caused from me disturbing a lot of sand doing a deep cleaning July 3rd.
I also want to say that I don't dose my 4g tank with anything at all and haven't in over a year yet it's thriving. zero water changes, corals are growing very well, both LPS and SPS so I have no idea why I constantly feel the need to feed corals when obviously I've proven to myself it's not needed once a system is balanced, lol.
Radicalrob1982
Member
Thanks all for the info.
So far, tank is getting a red dusting, more throughout. However even tho it’s increasing, it’s still not bad at all. Worst spots are in the dead zones around the bottom of rocks etc.
Been still feeding new life spectrum pellets twice a day. Fish love to eat. Been dosing a 1/2 cap of zoo every morning when my corals are in feeding mode. My sinularia has never looked so good. My Duncan has opened up and has heads I didn’t even know it had lol. Pods on glass are still present which is good.
Haven’t done a water change in a while. But po4 and no3 still reading zero. Likely because of the cyano.
I however tried looking at my dust under white light only and it appears like a rich deep brown. But when under blue light it’s a deep rich red. I’m thinking i may have cyano and diatoms together. Because if i let it get out of control, it forms mats like cyano would. The mats go thick and stringy. However I don’t think Dino’s are present as no tiny strings with bubbles ever appear.
I have an other theory as well. My rocks use to get covered in this stuff. But they were eventually able to grow their own film algae and the stuff no longer sticks to them. My issue is completely isolated to the sand bed now. I’m going to try and leave it for an extended time to see if the sand can also accomplish what the rocks did without intervention. If this doesn’t work. I may start a twice a week sand filtering by just vacuuming the sand but reintroducing the water. I can run it through a fine filter sock. My idea is if I can get most of it out, it will give more real estate to other algae’s which can eventually outcompete it.
So far, tank is getting a red dusting, more throughout. However even tho it’s increasing, it’s still not bad at all. Worst spots are in the dead zones around the bottom of rocks etc.
Been still feeding new life spectrum pellets twice a day. Fish love to eat. Been dosing a 1/2 cap of zoo every morning when my corals are in feeding mode. My sinularia has never looked so good. My Duncan has opened up and has heads I didn’t even know it had lol. Pods on glass are still present which is good.
Haven’t done a water change in a while. But po4 and no3 still reading zero. Likely because of the cyano.
I however tried looking at my dust under white light only and it appears like a rich deep brown. But when under blue light it’s a deep rich red. I’m thinking i may have cyano and diatoms together. Because if i let it get out of control, it forms mats like cyano would. The mats go thick and stringy. However I don’t think Dino’s are present as no tiny strings with bubbles ever appear.
I have an other theory as well. My rocks use to get covered in this stuff. But they were eventually able to grow their own film algae and the stuff no longer sticks to them. My issue is completely isolated to the sand bed now. I’m going to try and leave it for an extended time to see if the sand can also accomplish what the rocks did without intervention. If this doesn’t work. I may start a twice a week sand filtering by just vacuuming the sand but reintroducing the water. I can run it through a fine filter sock. My idea is if I can get most of it out, it will give more real estate to other algae’s which can eventually outcompete it.
the other thing I did was take my nero power heads and run them all around the tank blowing all the garbage off the rocks and corals, direct hard high flow into colonies of zoas etc to get the debris and growing cyano off of them. I think that helped save them a lot and would make the rocks look fantastic for a couple hours but in the end the only real solution in my tank was cutting back the lights.
Radicalrob1982
Member
Another update
Been dosing a full cap of seachem zoo every morning around 7 am.
However, to my surprise I am starting get some GHA growing on the dark side under one of my rocks.
Tonight for the first time in a long time the tank is looking very clean and the red dusting of cyano and whatever else is there is definitely being held back. Likely the GHA is assisting with this to some degree.
Pods on the glass haven’t been that visible lately. I’m gonna try getting a bottle of seachem phyto to add a good source for them. I’m even noticing that the algae on the glass is taking longer to accumulate than usual.
Going to also try adding a few more inverts to keep the GHA in check. But really happy to see the tank slowly turning into something normal looking lol.
I measured the no3 and po4. Still zero no3 but have a reading of 0.04 of po4.
I will post another update in a while as things progress
Been dosing a full cap of seachem zoo every morning around 7 am.
However, to my surprise I am starting get some GHA growing on the dark side under one of my rocks.
Tonight for the first time in a long time the tank is looking very clean and the red dusting of cyano and whatever else is there is definitely being held back. Likely the GHA is assisting with this to some degree.
Pods on the glass haven’t been that visible lately. I’m gonna try getting a bottle of seachem phyto to add a good source for them. I’m even noticing that the algae on the glass is taking longer to accumulate than usual.
Going to also try adding a few more inverts to keep the GHA in check. But really happy to see the tank slowly turning into something normal looking lol.
I measured the no3 and po4. Still zero no3 but have a reading of 0.04 of po4.
I will post another update in a while as things progress
Radicalrob1982
Member
For other users who may find this article useful, I’d like to add what I have done from then till now which has seemed to be slowly working out to help balance the tank to assist ridding myself of this cyano issue.
1. Initially, a bunch of water changes to really get out as much cyano as possible. Blow off/ out the rocks before each change, including stir up the sand to get as much of the stuff suspended to be vacuumed out.
2. Manually remove the mats as they form on the sand bed. Bought a tea strainer off Amazon with fine mesh. This method really knocked it back. I literally scooped up the mats with this item and tossed them out.
3. At first I tried to starve it out. But all that did was keep the cyano at bay as it was starving. My corals suffered from this method unless I directly fed them. I was just keeping them alive basically. I also added seachem seed which introduced some aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. I think this assisted by keeping no3 down.
4. Introduced seachem zooplankton. This gave my corals and other organisms food. Since dosing, my corals have been looking fantastic. My tank is 25 gallons and I’m dosing one full cap every morning. The tank is now in a state where it can grow other algae’s and not just cyano. Keep in my that even though dosing zoo, my no3 has never risen past zero to this point. I think this slow approach is likely a better way because previously I would dose neo phos and nitro to keep my parameters at a certain level. But I believe the huge rise in nutrients over a short period just leaves way more into the water than what it needs, and just fuels the cyano with excess nutrients. The minimum approach of just providing just enough food I think is the best way. This is not a race but a marathon.
At this point, my tank is looking much healthier and cleaner without the need for water changes. I keep my parameters for trace elements in good ranges. Even starting to grow some GHA on some rocks which is competing with the cyano. But my next battle will likely be GHA. But at least this can be managed easier once the tank has become more mature and balanced, with natural methods such as clean up crew and some phosphate remover if needed. I totally feel like nudging the tank in the right direction instead of instant numbers is a way healthier approach. The tank is now going in a good direction by in sense, opening the door and letting it do its thing with a gentle approach.
The cyano isn’t all gone, but it’s been fighting to stay alive with a minimal presence. Compared to where I was 8 months or so ago, I’m leaps and bounds ahead
1. Initially, a bunch of water changes to really get out as much cyano as possible. Blow off/ out the rocks before each change, including stir up the sand to get as much of the stuff suspended to be vacuumed out.
2. Manually remove the mats as they form on the sand bed. Bought a tea strainer off Amazon with fine mesh. This method really knocked it back. I literally scooped up the mats with this item and tossed them out.
3. At first I tried to starve it out. But all that did was keep the cyano at bay as it was starving. My corals suffered from this method unless I directly fed them. I was just keeping them alive basically. I also added seachem seed which introduced some aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. I think this assisted by keeping no3 down.
4. Introduced seachem zooplankton. This gave my corals and other organisms food. Since dosing, my corals have been looking fantastic. My tank is 25 gallons and I’m dosing one full cap every morning. The tank is now in a state where it can grow other algae’s and not just cyano. Keep in my that even though dosing zoo, my no3 has never risen past zero to this point. I think this slow approach is likely a better way because previously I would dose neo phos and nitro to keep my parameters at a certain level. But I believe the huge rise in nutrients over a short period just leaves way more into the water than what it needs, and just fuels the cyano with excess nutrients. The minimum approach of just providing just enough food I think is the best way. This is not a race but a marathon.
At this point, my tank is looking much healthier and cleaner without the need for water changes. I keep my parameters for trace elements in good ranges. Even starting to grow some GHA on some rocks which is competing with the cyano. But my next battle will likely be GHA. But at least this can be managed easier once the tank has become more mature and balanced, with natural methods such as clean up crew and some phosphate remover if needed. I totally feel like nudging the tank in the right direction instead of instant numbers is a way healthier approach. The tank is now going in a good direction by in sense, opening the door and letting it do its thing with a gentle approach.
The cyano isn’t all gone, but it’s been fighting to stay alive with a minimal presence. Compared to where I was 8 months or so ago, I’m leaps and bounds ahead
Radicalrob1982
Member
Thanks for this info.I never saw this post of yours and in my log I've been fighting cyano since about July 3rd of this year. I do believe mine is cyano rather than simply diatoms because of the way it started to sheet up when it got really bad. this happened when I was going through all the rigmarole that you also listed off such as water changes, the seachem seed, and even dr tims, etc.
Looking back over the years I found that dosing things like phyto (live or not), reef roids, AB+, and just about any coral food could lead to an increase in what I thought was diatoms, but now I sorta think was early stage cyano. By starving the tank a bit it would clear up naturally in my 5 year old system. For instance, I wanted my corals to explode so I feed reef roids (or whatever coral food du jour). and then the next day I see a dusting of red across the sand. once I made the correlation I'd stop feeding the reef roids until it disappeared. feed again, it's back.
anyways on this current situation I went into a completely light blackout period for a day or 2. But I didn't like the damage to the corals so I started turning the light on for 4 hours or so in the evening. Now, I have my lights come on at 2pm and turn off at normal sunset time (I believe it starts around 7pm). My corals are looking fantastic for the first time in 6 weeks as of last night.
But I still have this issue of zero nitrates etc. So what I've been doing in conjunction with lowering my light period is feeding the tank, cautiously, my AB+. I'm now out of AB+ (finished today) and I probably won't re-order. But tonight I'll assess what the tank looks like. if corals are happy and the cyano is still not coming back strong, then I'll continue this 1/2 light exposure for a little while and I may MAY bring back reef roids.
But at the very least I've been feeding my fish normal, they get two frozen food cubes a day, a nori strip inconsistently, maybe every other day, and I will continue to boost my pod population, CUC, etc. I also want to increase my bioload a little bit (more fish) before adding more corals.
long story short: My only solution to cyano after doing everything you did coincidentally, has been less light. and my solution to feeding the system has been to do it during lights out period. I think I tend to over light my tank and over feed my tank in an overzealous effort to see my corals grow faster.
disclaimer, my 5 year old system crashed in January and this system I'm talking about is only about 4+ months old. 2nd cycle was way harder than the first and it was caused from me disturbing a lot of sand doing a deep cleaning July 3rd.
I’ve been able to get where I am witj cyano just hanging on with a 1 hour ramp 8 hours on and 1 hour ramp down. However, only been running the light at about 50%. Getting about 150 par at top and about 70 at sand level. It’s an ai blade 21 inch grow. Maybe the cyano is also affected by the intensity as well. Maybe I can slowly ramp down for a while to see if that will put a good nail in the coffin for it.
I have kept the intensity on my lights normal, just lower timeframes for the summer. but everything is finally looking so good that I'm going to let it run it's normal all day course today and I'll see what it looks like tonight...
FWIW I dose my zoo or phyto at night after lights off, I feel like my corals are doing well with that feeding but the cyano isn't benifiting from it somehow. I might be off my rocker on that one but it's worked really well the past week.
During the day I feed frozen. I usually use one large tab of a mysis mixture for the fish as well as a cube of either bbs, or eggs. the fish go nuts for that as well but I think the smaller stuff often finds its way to corals too.
The only thing I'm not doing yet that I used to do with my last 100g tank was direct feeding the nems. I may start that up soon since everyone seems healthy and happy. when I started direct feeding my nems in the old tank they grew 5 times faster and split.
FWIW I dose my zoo or phyto at night after lights off, I feel like my corals are doing well with that feeding but the cyano isn't benifiting from it somehow. I might be off my rocker on that one but it's worked really well the past week.
During the day I feed frozen. I usually use one large tab of a mysis mixture for the fish as well as a cube of either bbs, or eggs. the fish go nuts for that as well but I think the smaller stuff often finds its way to corals too.
The only thing I'm not doing yet that I used to do with my last 100g tank was direct feeding the nems. I may start that up soon since everyone seems healthy and happy. when I started direct feeding my nems in the old tank they grew 5 times faster and split.
Great approach to this common nuisance.
Remove the offender and feed its competitors.
Well done.
reply part 1 ( its was too long) So I feel like you've been caring for my tank LOL same problem . This has been my saga and perhaps not the most safe way. first of all what ii can offer is intermediate/ modest expert advice . Expert only based on my own trial and error. Ive never had a problem with slime algae hairy sure with start ups but usually a few handfuls of snails and a lawnmower and it was gone. Not so this time. SO first learning curve change LIGHTS. Turn off the Red. the marine things dont need it algae loves it . It will help. I turned of the green too just incase . Ocean needs white , blue etc. . Intervention #2 Make the wake up time for your lights later and off sooner. ( This in a sense starves the algae without killing your corals. ) gain not a cure but a intervention. ALso depending on your tank size you can turn down the intensity. Now if you have SPS or calcium corals I would suggest putting them in a friends tank or get a little biocube to use as a Hospital tank. I am lucky as all I have is softies . there are loads of smaller regulars tanks you can cycle up in a few weeks cheap. with a canister or something ( short term overnight or 2 day stays only )) This process is a long one. But worth it. WHat you need to remember is this bacterial slime is the primordial ooze from which we all things on this planet rose from . Cyano bacteria is tough stuff . it acclimates to everything you throw at it in general. so you need to keep changing tactics just enough to keep it weak. I think of it as a right of passage to the reeef world so you never make that mistake again. You will learn your mistake eventually when you do it and a light will click in your head. AHHHHH so thats what and you can fill in the blank. Tanks are like a pregnancy and children. Everyone who has one will give you advice. some you should take and some you should isten to , however your experience will be just enough different to really cost you some money. In the medical field we call it start low and go slow. Its prudent advice here too. Except lights. your corals if in the tank need light to survive. SO the best way I think to help your tank is to strangle the slime. there are three slime killers you already have one, FLux is good too and I think I have another. Each 2 weeks I change the medication regimene The reason some people wake up with dead fish and corals when using these is they dont follow directions. AERATION is key with chemipure or clean etc. They all say it and you really need to obey that rule. When cyan bacteria die you see all the bubbles? that means your winning the battle but you need a big air stone. no carbon and no UV. It changes the chemicals . Get a turkey baster and a hang over skimmer. unless you have a refugium. Then you'll be cleaning it ALOT > Blow off all the dead stuff and around your corals. etc . there will be brown foam everywhere net it off do whatever to make it go aways, net out the crud. like you did. Apologize daily to your fish. ?/// Back to the pregnancy metaphor. - When you're pregnant you get a lot of advice. But your child/ pregnancy is yours different from all the rest. Might be similar like two arms legs toes head etc. but personality is different. Your tank is the same way. no one has your precise water, fish, lights. so your experience will be different . I will tell you the one BIGGEST think I found that really knocked it on its ass ( cyan talk again ) FLOW . FLOW and more FLOW.
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part 2 lol I know long Ill never post something this long again I promise
I used to think my fish were going to be pinned against the side of the tank you cant go from 0 to 600 or they really will be. but dial it up slowly. I literally added a power head for every area of the tank. There is just one bg puffer in there now ( in mine ) and I'm pretty sure he hates me when I clean his home but every time I do he now just kind of is used to it. . I have yet to lose any coral and I mean I'm an ER nurse so I am aggressive with the cleaning. LOL. I don't like things that do not go my way in general. ER nurses are tiny bit control freaks. Some of us are comfortable admitting it. Others know it and just don't verbalize it. ANYHOW . persevere. take out what rocks you can and scrub them. But a kitchen brush put in your sink and scrub in water then rinse it good with DI and put it back if you clean a rock a week it shouldn't upset your biome. Micro algae so the last step or at least where I am in the mix is outcompete your slime for nutrients. I have dragons breath in the tank ( mosaicmicros.com) sells it but its available everywhere on line too. grows quick is resilient to chemicals. and Absorbs everything the slime does. It will out compete it. If your choosing micronutrients choose some with same colors. ( yes Burgundy colored plants under lights ) will be your least favorite tank color for a while . (TSTSD- tank slime traumatic stress disorder) . reach out to anyone who will understand. we've all been through it. worse case toss in the towel find a place to save whatever coral you have and take down the tank all of it and new gravel rock after a good scrub etc. ( this is like I mean the worst case like everything in the tank dies option in my opinion.
But there is something of a satisfaction to win over on the oldest organism in the earth right? not to mention everything that lives there in your tank will be hardy as hell.. just do everything slowly if you have a power head get a stronger one. aim at bottom and top you can have not only no dead spots the current needs to be pretty quick so the skimmer has more chance to grab the spores than the filter /overflow/ surface. if slime can settle it can grab hold and grow. Strong Flow that is its Achilles heel. If you turn it up slowly your corals will acclimate or move the fragile ones to behind a rock or give it a barrier . This is the most important intervention If you saw it on the microbe level it makes sense.
Here is where my first degree in botany actually paid off. I had a reef aquarium guy mentioned to me when I was discussing my tank woes. he said " you know its the oldest organism on the planet. " its pretty smart at survival at this point . I thought to myself hmmmm.... what did all other things back then and now have in common and it is called microfilament propagation like things that live in the human body that are also hard to kill there are spores and filaments this bugger has both see each one of those segments. Each one can grow into a new plant. Remember the movie alien? each segment is basically a whole new plant ( that is who you're battling) View attachment 32413396
It wins by attrition. unless you're stronger willed and patient enough. But it does hate FLOW. if you can get a urchin that helps and the other creature I use is lawnmower blenny seems to like hairy algae as I had both at the same time. Urchins are like really slow lawnmowers ( the real grass kind) you can see where they've been lol The other think reef friendly I found is nudibranchs. They seem to eat the slime ( regular green type nothing fancy ) snails too but like nudibranchs they are pretty slow. urchins seem to eat and graze pretty quick you just have to keep an eye on them one got a hold of my giant mushroom and started to have a snack. I pulled him off and the mushroom recovered just keep an eye on them they will usually stay on the junk and not the softies. . If you go the nudibranch route make sure you put something over your overflows or they will be gone if they venture too close. same with fans and power heads .
Water changes. so the manufactures says after a few days 48 hours I think. I am not telling you yes or no. I've done both and not seen a difference. What wisdom I can offer is water chemistry. If you are creating a natural biome less upset is better. cyano bacteria is self limiting eventually it dies unfortunately it usually kills off every nitrogen source before it goes aka fish plants coral. When its exhausted will be then taken over by its ugly cousin hair algae . your aim is to kill it and not kill your tank. aerate your tank turn your lights to less time keep tank at 77 degrees and loads I mean a lot of flow. and pray a lot for peace.. if you keep at it you will win. give it one leg up and you'll be at it 8 months from now too. Also believe it or not I have never added phosphate to a tank Like NEVER . years ago everyone though phosphate bad / nO3 bad. so my tanks have min Nitrate and 0.0 ppm phosphate unless it arrives naturally into the water somehow like bound to food etc. and its really what Nitrate is in there is from when I add via a little VODKA ( yes vodka) Old school carbohydrate source) . but it works . I would make phosphate 0. plants need it to grow. and slime is basically a plant. if you liquid feed your corals they'll be ok they are a higher animal so they can store food and are a lot toucher than you think or at least tougher than the bacteria. But if they look stressed take them out into another tank until you win the war. ( or i they're really expensive. Just move them ) well sorry to rant. even if you take none of my experience to use. its good to know there are many of us out there all having a similar experience. We are swearing at our tank at the same moment you are. It is the difference between Reefers and those who say yup I had a saltwater tank once. Good luck .
I didn't realize your tank was soo small that is harder in some ways and easier in others . Smaller area and fluctuations are faster. But congratulations. GHA is easily handles with lanmower blenny or urchins not the cutest of creatures but effective Nudibranch also good option but again slower. DO what mother nature does and you'll be happier
