Cycling a 225g

[Lilfish]

I know I need to be patient. I have 200 lbs. LR it has been in about 2 weeks. I have some hair algae and is it cyano or diatoms that have created a red brown layer on my rock and sand?
Here are my questions:
I have read that others either dose ammonia or add a chunk of shrimp is this necessary or recommended? If so which is preferred? I had a ammonia spike, but now am reading zero. I have about 1.5 ppm nitrite where it has been for 3 days with ammonia at zero.

When should I add chaeto to the fuge? Nitrates have spiked to over 100 ppm. Or should I just do a water change?

When should I look at adding a CUC? Should I wait until I have cycled all the way through nitrites as well?

Should I look at adding an ATS to deal with nitrates or just go with chaeto in my fuge?

 

[Allmost]

Hello,
some algae during cycle is normal, and part of cycle. I would add cheato to the fuge now, and start looking at CUC, add them by the weekend so they can get started with the algae.

HTH,

 

[b0bab0ey]

Is this 200 lbs of "live" rock or dry rock?

If you are still reading nitrites, more ammonia should follow. So I wouldn't add any livestock to the tank yet. But something is not right here. Nitrates should not spike to over 100 ppm on a pre or newly cycled tank.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I know I need to be patient. I have 200 lbs. LR it has been in about 2 weeks. I have some hair algae and is it cyano or diatoms that have created a red brown layer on my rock and sand?
Here are my questions:
I have read that others either dose ammonia or add a chunk of shrimp is this necessary or recommended? If so which is preferred? I had a ammonia spike, but now am reading zero. I have about 1.5 ppm nitrite where it has been for 3 days with ammonia at zero.

When should I add chaeto to the fuge? Nitrates have spiked to over 100 ppm. Or should I just do a water change?

When should I look at adding a CUC? Should I wait until I have cycled all the way through nitrites as well?

Should I look at adding an ATS to deal with nitrates or just go with chaeto in my fuge?

In the DT, if your interest is mostly reef with just a few small fish, you do not need a very robust cycle to start. That is; you may well do not need to add any additional source of ammonia. The decay from the the LR recently collected (not dry re-use type) will generally do well for you.

FOR the QT, however, you should estabblish a very robust biological filter laden with a lot of nitrification bacteria. You can then QT fish (or isolate non-fish) for extended periods of time. This will help you greatly.

You "cycle a tank" and think ecologically wrt to the DT.

You cycle the material intended for the QT for specific reason to rid the QT water of ammonia, not for the ecological perspective. For the QT, you are only interested in nitrification, not denitrification and the rest of the nitrogen cycle. In the case you definitely should add a source of ammonia.

Nitrate is harmless to fish and many if not most non-fish; nitrate is an ecological concern in the DT but not a direct health issue for fish.

It follows naturally that if your interest in the DT is mostly fish, you should definitely add a source of ammonia to achieve very high level of nitrification capacity in the DT early on.

 

[Allmost]

^
can you give us some reasons ?
if nitrite, then ammonia will follow ? what does that mean ?

and no3 cant go above 100 PPM ? why not ?

 

[Lilfish]

LR was live. Got half from craigs and the temp of the water was low 70's and had a strong smell. Other half was from petsolutions and was sandy but looked and smelled good. I've been reading further and have come to learn that bioballs have gone out of style since I had my last reef over 15 years ago. Will be removing those tomorrow or later today. I am thinking that is the problem or part of it.

 

[b0bab0ey]

^
can you give us some reasons ?
if nitrite, then ammonia will follow ? what does that mean ?

and no3 cant go above 100 PPM ? why not ?

Oops, in my haste, I accidentally misrepresented the nitrogen cycle. Typically, ammonia is converted into nitrites by ammonia eating bacteria, which is then converted into nitrates by nitrite eating bacteria. If you're reading nitrites in a pre or newly cycled tank then it's very possible that all of the ammonia has yet to be processed or there's still more to come. So, I don't advocate adding any livestock (even CUC) until you are getting 0 ammonia and nitrites.

Obviously, you are going to get nitrates after a cycle is complete and even during, but 100 ppm?! I think the last two tanks I cycled I got between 5-10 ppm when the cycle was complete. The OP is looking at massive water changes to get that nitrate down if he plans on keeping corals/inverts long-term. I think it would take chaeto forever to process it all.

 

[Allmost]

not true, but lets not get into it you seem to want to argue which I dont

the more ammonia you start with, the more no3 you will end with
anyways,

 

[b0bab0ey]

LR was live. Got half from craigs and the temp of the water was low 70's and had a strong smell. Other half was from petsolutions and was sandy but looked and smelled good. I've been reading further and have come to learn that bioballs have gone out of style since I had my last reef over 15 years ago. Will be removing those tomorrow or later today. I am thinking that is the problem or part of it.

This new info (about the bioballs) explains a lot. They are basically a nitrate factory and are only used nowadays in FO setups. Unless you want to spend the time meticulously cleaning all the trapped detritus off of them. That turns into a never-ending job.

I think you'll find you may also have high phosphates. It would explain all the algae.

IMO, toss out all the bioballs and start doing WCs. Get those nitrates down. A CUC will handle nitrates better than corals, so I wouldn't start adding the latter until you're down to almost undetectable levels. Hopefully the macro algae can (mostly) keep it in check from there.

 

[Lilfish]

Thanks for the help I'll be waiting to add CUC but will be looking to add some chaeto tomorrow.

Any thoughts on adding a ATS? I have read they are great for nitrate removal.

 

[Lilfish]

Thanks for the help I'll be waiting to add CUC but will be looking to add some chaeto tomorrow.

Any thoughts on adding a ATS? I have read they are great for nitrate removal.

 

[b0bab0ey]

Thanks for the help I'll be waiting to add CUC but will be looking to add some chaeto tomorrow.

Any thoughts on adding a ATS? I have read they are great for nitrate removal.

I have no experience using an ATS, but like you I've read great things. But I still think you are looking at a bunch of WCs first to get the nitrates under control. Once that's done, an ATS & chaeto will help you keep them down.

 

[Mrscribbled]

The reason your nitrates are high is because your rock had an enormous amount of die off . This is the reason newly aquired rock should be placed in a rubber tub or separate tank and wait for the ammonia to be zero then put into dt. Your bio balls have nothing to do with the high nitrates and are probably now just starting to get bacteria colonisation. They are not nitrate factories either. They just happen to convert ammonia to nitrate faster than rock due to the high oxygen level. If possible do a hundred percent water change and then start bio pellets or macro refugium. Years ago I did the same thing and through just partial water changes it took months to get nitrates down. Do not add any more ammonia because your roxk is probably still producing some. Once nitates are under control and the system has been ensured to get rid of any parasites add a quarantined fish or two then go from there.

 

[Lilfish]

So bioballs were a mess. Took them out, will test ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites again tomorrow. I am currently using API test kit for those, how accurate are they I was looking at ordering a whole Lamotte kit that will test everything I will need for a reef. I have some left over pvc and am going to look into building a ATS to help with nitrates. The tank is in my classroom so I won't be looking at it everyday since I will be on break for two weeks. This will help with the urge to put something in it.

 

[Lilfish]

I know that bioballs aren't that bad. I had a 120 years ago with them and was very successful with softies, mushrooms, and zoas. I never lost any fish until the whole thing crapped out because of a power surge from a storm. I just want to get everything stable to begin with so that I don't need to mess with equipment. They are out for now.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Is this 200 lbs of "live" rock or dry rock?

If you are still reading nitrites, more ammonia should follow. So I wouldn't add any livestock to the tank yet. But something is not right here. Nitrates should not spike to over 100 ppm on a pre or newly cycled tank.

The highest level of nitrate after cycling depends on the total ammonia that you have put in directly or by protein that you put in (or urine) minus the effect of any denitrification if any.

It is a matter of terminology, or language of a hobby, but "cycling" has historically been a matter of nitrification only, not denitrification. There has been "cycling" before live rock with people struggling with denitrification by trickle filter and such.

In freshwater when people do not care about denitrification there is also cycling.

After cycling, nitrate can be any reading if one does not know how much ammonia has been processed and how much denitrification has already occured.

If you are reading nitrite, it means two things: nitrosonomas bacteria exist in significant numbers already and nitrobacter bacteria activity lags behind.

 

[Lilfish]

That sounds like good news. I know removing the balls will set back the process, but why delay a choice I would have made eventually. I guess what I am learning reading RC intently is that everyone has an opinion as to what works and if you find something that works for you just go with it.

 

[wooden_reefer]

The concentration of nitrite does not tell the concentration of ammonia.

Nitrite is a transcient chemical species and its concentration is related more to relative numbers of nitrosonomas vs nitrobacter bacteria, not necessarily the concentration of ammonia.

 

[b0bab0ey]

To the OP - Post #7 (disc1) from this thread might explain why your nitrates are reading so high:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2246531

It's certainly new info to me, and I just thought I'd pass it on. Although I'm shocked that wooden_reefer didn't already know this.

 

[Lilfish]

To the OP - Post #7 (disc1) from this thread might explain why your nitrates are reading so high:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2246531

It's certainly new info to me, and I just thought I'd pass it on. Although I'm shocked that wooden_reefer didn't already know this.

I checked it out and I feel like I have heard that before. Thanks for passing it on. I removed the bioballs, added chaeto, am leaving the fuge lights on 24/7, and changed 10% of the water. I am out of the classroom for break and won't be able to check on things till Wednesday. So we'll see then how things are running!