Dead Flame Wrasse in QT, did I do something wrong?

[revaltion131]

Really hoping some of the Wrasse-sperts will chime in on this one. I bought this pair from PIA and I have emailed Kevin, seeking his opinion as well. Clearly, they were shipped to me. I will begin by apologizing for the novel and hope I provided everything I could. Here's the QT regimen I've employed thus far:

I bought a pair of flame wrasses and they arrived and immediately went into 20 gallon long QT, with a sponge seeded in my display system and a couple of cured live rock pieces, no sand, last Tuesday. The QT also has an airstone and a HOB filter. Here's the first place I think I may have gone wrong: the acclimation, as I was always going off of my LFS's recommendation and not the excellent threads here on this forum. I did a drip acclimation for ~2 hours and even though the SG still wasn't really within .001, I added them in anyway. I don't think I need to explain what I did wrong with that one.

Now in the QT, as expected, they were both shy but both ate some on that first day. Both fish ate again on the second day, but the female ate more and was willing to go farther across the tank to get her food. From what I've read, this is perfectly normal for the male to be shier. The male didn't eat at all on the third day and showed signs of flukes, specifically scratching at his gills on the rocks, so I also began a PraziPro regimen on that day, dosing as instructed on the bottle and removing the carbon filter cardrige from the HOB. The female continued to improve and move out and about more often while the male kept hiding, and not visibly eating. During the first 5-6 days, my ammonia tested out to zero, but it wasn't quite a "perfect" zero on the Seachem badge I have on the system. Nitrites and nitrates were zero. Yesterday was the 5th day of PraziPro treatment and was also the day on which both wrasses were most active in the tank. The female ate well and the male seemed to eat a couple of small pieces of food.

Starting this morning, both fish basically spent the day hiding, in stress colors. I did the daily 50% water change much earlier than my normal time, just to make sure everything was alright and in the hopes that they might perk up. I also did a ton of work in my display this morning, which is in direct view of the QT and maybe four feet away. I attributed the stress behavior to me doing all this work on the display, which had me moving back and forth for a long time right in front of their tank, while they are normally used to it being a very empty and quiet place during the day. When I got home from dinner tonight, I found the male quite dead, and of course removed him immediately. The female is alive, but showing significantly more distress than usual. The current numbers are as follows:

SG: 1.020/1, line isn't quite clear
Temp: 75.9-76.1 F, have been minor swings up or down ~2 degrees absolute max, when I couldn't match the water change perfectly
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm

I did a 50% water change daily and to keep the PraziPro dose up, I added a 1/4 tsp, ~1/8th of the total recommended dosage for the 20 gallons, in each change. When I was worried about the ammonia at the beginning, I dosed Prime, according to the directions on the bottle.

Alright, I think I've covered it all. Hopefully you have everything you might need in order to help me. I really want to know what I did wrong, if anything, so that I can understand it and can do it right next time. I did take pictures of the dead fish, out of water on a paper towel, if someone wants to see them. However, he looked fine except for the area where the worms had begun to work on him (died up under the rocks).

Thanks so much!

 

[snorvich]

While there was a SG mistake early on, remember that male flame wrasses are difficult shippers and very sensitive. I have always felt the best way to acquire a male is to buy two or more females of different sizes.

 

[revaltion131]

Thanks Steve. I will have to try that next time, I guess I didn't research as thoroughly as I thought I had. My female was pretty distressed yesterday but she survived the night, so we'll see if it was just a short phase when I feed later.

And obviously, I will acclimate properly next time.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Don't forget the one truth we all seem to avoid: Sometimes, despite our best efforts, a fish just doesn't make it.

 

[tmz]

The male didn't eat at all on the third day and showed signs of flukes, specifically scratching at his gills on the rocks,

The female continued to improve and move out
Starting this morning, both fish basically spent the day hiding, in stress colors.

tonight, I found the male quite dead, and of course removed him immediately. The female is alive, but showing significantly more distress than usual

Maybe crytocaryon irritans or velvet( amyloodinium). Prazi wouldn't hlep much with that and 1.020 sg wouldn't either. Did you see flukes? Often you can spot them on the eye.

 

[revaltion131]

Mr. Tuskfish, I know I'm not exactly an expert aquarist so I figured there was a good chance I did something wrong. I basically wanted to rule everything out, if it was just one of those things where you can't do anything.

Tmz, No, I couldn't see the flukes, but I saw no signs of ich or velvet either, at the time, so I did the prazi first. I lost all my fish in a bad move, and it was velvet that took them. I couldn't see the symptoms at all on the wrasses I lost but assumed it was the cause, because it was clear with the other fish, such as the tangs. Is there any real good visual cue to go off of for them, or do you sort of guess and check based on their behavior?

If it helps, the male was definitely breathing much heavier than usual yesterday afternoon. Currently, my female is hiding, still showing stress colors, almost 24 hours later. She showed interest in food but didn't come out to eat. Her breathing appears to be normal, though. I can't realistically do a tank transfer method right now. If you had to treat for ich or velvet, not certain which was the problem, which would you treat for? And, would there be any reason not to start going down for a hypo treatment in the meantime?

Thanks again.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I doubt that this fish has velvet, it would be getting worse by the hour. Hypo or TT only kills ich; not velvet. Do you see any signs of any parasite; spots, a velvety coating on parts of the body, flashing, scratching,skin peeling, etc? If not, I'd wait until the fish is in better shape. I wouldn't use any med until you really suspect a parasite or other treatable condition. So far (unless I missed something), it just seems that the fish is having trouble acclimating. Prazi-Pro is very well tolerated; but again, it should only be used on healthy fish---unless you suspect flukes. I doubt that the work on the DT had anything to do with the fish's present state; IMO, we give "stress' way too much credit (or blame) for problems. I think the best you can do right now is simply maintain stable conditions and offer good foods. When the fish starts eating and just starts to "look right'; then you can treat as you see fit. Just my opinion, but hypo is my least favorite method of curing or preventing ich. Also, you don't need to test for nitrite or nitrate; these compounds don't hurt fish at anywhere near the level reached in a QT. Ammonia in a QT is a big and common problem, though.

 

[revaltion131]

The only symptom, besides the now not eating and hiding, was the flashing/scratching the male was doing, and it was definitely directed at as his gill plates. I didn't see it on him after the first day he showed it, the night I started prazi. I was thinking hypo because I can't get out and get a copper med until tomorrow night. I really don't like the idea of using it so I don't keep it in my stores. Thank you, I'll keep up with water quality and hope for the best.

Thanks on the chemical levels, too. I knew I didn't really need to worry about nitrates but I wanted to make sure and measure everything in case I missed an ammonia spike and was showing up in the nitrite phase of the cycle.

 

[eholceker]

I had the exact same issue with my male flame in qt. I think we got them around the exact same time. Needless to say my male died friday. I did notice some gill scratching as well. No signs of ick. There is also a pygmy wrasse that was in QT that showed no signs of anything as well. I got the wrasse from PIA as well. I wonder if there was something wrong with this batch. Eithe rway Kevin is awesome and I already got my order in for 2 female flames. I knew the males were difficult to acclimate but tried to give it a shot.

 

[snorvich]

Assume that all fish have ich and put them through tank transfer so you will not have the issue. No signs of ich does not mean the fish do not have it.

 

[tmz]

Tmz, No, I couldn't see the flukes, but I saw no signs of ich or velvet either, at the time, so I did the prazi first. I lost all my fish in a bad move, and it was velvet that took them. I couldn't see the symptoms at all on the wrasses I lost but assumed it was the cause, because it was clear with the other fish, such as the tangs. Is there any real good visual cue to go off of for them, or do you sort of guess and check based on their behavior?

I excerpted the symptoms from your post to get a clear look at them . What stood out to me was: the lack of appetite, scratching ,respiratory distress and an improving then worsening and death cylce usually associated with primary and more virulent secondary ich infestations.
The prazi would have handled the flukes or set them back at least .With flukes the fish is usually fine, then a little twitching and or scratching, then down and then dead; no up and down cycle at lest not those that I've seen
The lack of spots on the skin lessens the likihood of ich but it is possible it's in the gills. Are the fins frayed? The 1.020 sg or even the prazi may have slowed the ich or the velvet down a bit making it harder to see.Velvet sometimes kills before spots are evident on the skin hitting the gills.

It's hard to say what it is or what I would do at this point since I can't observe the fish and makingthe right call is difficult at best.

Having said that, despite is weakened condition I'd probably roll the dice on a treatment for ich and velvet via a formailn bath,folowed by an in qt formalin treatment with a product like Hikari Ich X. My guess and I hope I'm wrong is that you will loose the fish without treating whatever ails it. I doubt hypo will be helpful in this case and would not be my choice but it may help. It won't hurt the fish.
The formalin treatment may be hard on the weakened fish too but I think some intervention is needed and some wrasses tend to dispaly a sensitivity to copper by many anecdotal accounts. Those are my guesses and rationale for your consideration Sorry for your troubles and good luck.

 

[eholceker]

As an FYI, I did keep my flame in a fresh water cup for 30 minutes after it died to see if any flukes would drop from the gills. Did not see anything. The gills were actually a nice color. In all honestly I think whatever killed mine is probablly killing yours. I have no idea other than it was definitly not ick, velvet, or flukes.

 

[revaltion131]

Thanks again for all of the detailed answers.

No, the fins are not frayed, they look complete and fine, not even a tatter from tearing it on the rocks, etc.

I'll take your advice, do what I can, and hope for the best. I fear that you're right though. This little female just doesn't look good. I know I've got a lot more to learn and understand, especially what order to do things in and whether or not they should be done prophylactically(sp?) or not. A hands-on course on fish veterinary work would be really useful.

I'll provide an update, but I fear the worst.

 

[tmz]

I think if you acclimate the qt tank to the bag water for new arrivals and use tank transfer preventatively while observing for the other maladies you'll be happier.

I would also avoid using Prime or other ammonia detoxifiers in conjunction with other meds as the interactions are unknown I don't know how praziquantel and the ammonia detoxifier in Prime react but I do know ammonia detoxifiers and bound copper toghether are leathal.

 

[revaltion131]

That's what I will do next time. And in the mean time, everything's going to go sit in the summer sun for a week and "sanitize". I lost the female this morning, as expected. I think I'll give it a good month or two before I try anything new and I'll pick something more forgiving since I've never done the tank transfer method.

Thanks again to everyone for all the help.

 

[RJT]

Sometimes the water in the bag becomes very strong ammonia immediately after opening. With a long acclimation period in their transport water may have given them ammonia damage. Some people immediately remove the fish from the transport bag once the temperature is matched to the QT. A subset of them fresh water dip then QT.

 

[tmz]

Sorry , it's hard to lose any fish. Flame wrasses can be tough in any case and expensive. If you go for them again have an acclimation and qt place in which you are confident.

I just picked up a holichores irridis, radiant wrasse. Got a call from the lfs I deal with and they got 3 in. They don't show up all the time. Mine died a few months ago after 5 yrs without any apparent casue: so I had asked him to get me a replacement when he could.

He held all 3 fish in the shipping bags for me to avoid acclimation to his system and then to mine. A couple of lfs's have had trouble keeping this particular fish alive lately. I get no guarantees and small discount for taking the fish right out of the box. I drove right up to the store after his call. I looked the 3 fish over carefully, while they were in separate shipping bags. One had a swelling in the abdomen, another the largest was lethargic and kept it's mouth open, the 3rd a smaller one looked reasonably perky and healthy. I set up my qt tank to approximate , the shipping water sg and turned the heater on to get the temp up before leaving for the store. When I got back, I immediately floated the unopened bag for 20 minutes; opened it ,cradled the fish in my hand and put it in the qt tank. Sometimes I just spill out most of the bag water into a bucket for disposal and slide the fish with a little bag water into the qt tank.

It's swimming well and eating . I'll do tank transfer from here and adjust the sg up to display tank levels over the next couple of weeks. It's at 1.019 now. If I'm lucky , I'll get a new iridis for the dispaly . I'll watch it for other maladies and may/not treat preventatively with prazi pro. Likely, I will . Then when it's nice and strong it's time to see if the tankmates accept it.

 

[revaltion131]

Thanks for the little write-up. I will try Flames again, Rhomboids are on my list also :S but it might be a good year or or so, probably wait until my upgrade is done next summer. Good luck with your wrasse and I'm sorry to hear about the loss of the old one!