Thaks Steve: Youre measured responses are always calming. The Solaris will hopefully usher in the newest wave in lighting technology that willhelp to drive down the energy consumption. Given the high cost it is still prohibitive for most reefers including myself. I've seen some industrious DIY attempts on the DIY forum but it is quite labor intensive since each LED has to be independently wired. Thanx for taking this issue up with the science committee as well.
Decreasing "Carbon Footprint"
- Thread starter drbronx
- Start date
Piazzon12
New member
Just some thoughts:
I agree that we should all do what we can personally to help the environment, and I commend your efforts.
As far as the electric goes, I believe it's all a numbers game. If you look at the report your provider puts out, a certain percentage already comes from green sources, when you sign up for all "green" electric, they just shift you to 100% and the "normal" people's supply % goes down a tiny bit. I suppose if everyone changed over eventually they would have to increase their total amount derived from "green" sources... or they will just stop giving the option.
It is my opinion that most sweeping change (throughout history) is driven by economics. There may have been some moral issue at the forefront, but the change occurs due to economic forces. Just wait til gas is $5-7 a gallon... then people will get serious. Make it too expensive to operate coal burining power plants, and big business has no choice but reduce emissions. I'm by no means saying that our indivual efforts aren't important, just some thoughts.observations.
We should all do what we can to remove unnecessary power consumption from our setups, but on the bright side they do in fact serve a good purpose(besides making us happy). Propogation helps reduce the demand on what is taken from our natural reefs (at least hopefully), and we help to continue species that may eventually become extinct in the wild.
Adam
I agree that we should all do what we can personally to help the environment, and I commend your efforts.
As far as the electric goes, I believe it's all a numbers game. If you look at the report your provider puts out, a certain percentage already comes from green sources, when you sign up for all "green" electric, they just shift you to 100% and the "normal" people's supply % goes down a tiny bit. I suppose if everyone changed over eventually they would have to increase their total amount derived from "green" sources... or they will just stop giving the option.
It is my opinion that most sweeping change (throughout history) is driven by economics. There may have been some moral issue at the forefront, but the change occurs due to economic forces. Just wait til gas is $5-7 a gallon... then people will get serious. Make it too expensive to operate coal burining power plants, and big business has no choice but reduce emissions. I'm by no means saying that our indivual efforts aren't important, just some thoughts.observations.
We should all do what we can to remove unnecessary power consumption from our setups, but on the bright side they do in fact serve a good purpose(besides making us happy). Propogation helps reduce the demand on what is taken from our natural reefs (at least hopefully), and we help to continue species that may eventually become extinct in the wild.
Adam
Very well stated Adam. Market forces and economics have largely determined human choice and behaviors. The problem is we are coming to a point in history where the "laissez fare" conservative notions of letting free markets prevail on their own may have catastrophic consequences. These notions are based on the assumption that markets posess a collective wisdom. Admittedly, sometimes, that is actually true. I'm probably naive, but I am hoping that perhaps sensibilitiy with some urgency can precipitate a grass root response that can transcend or at least influence market forces. Because by the time markets adjust, considerable and possibly irrevocable effects will have been wrought. Many people doing little things can make for huge changes. This country effectively made considereable behavior changes during WWII and during the 70's oil crisis to name a couple. So we are capable. Of course, during those times we had leadership.
Try this link for the Calfo thread : http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic62964-13-1.aspx
SteveL
New member
Gary Greguire:
No the MH unit on the comparison display did not have supplemental fluorescents if I recall correctly. Jim Davies was with me he may be able to confirm.
Really need to get my hands on a PAR quantum meter to confirm. Worth checking into the claim that T-5's are more efficient than LEDs. I do know that the heat coming off the top of the Tek-5 units that I've been using is significantly more than what I experienced with the Solaris unit.
DrBronx: Yes I realize that the Solaris unit is v. expensive at this point but if the demand is there, the competition will arrive and the R&D costs are recouped - you can be sure that the cost will come down. I also know that there's more on the horizon for LED technology - it's just going to keep getting better and better.
As to other initiatives for electricity use reductions, have a read of this months Coral Magazine - fantastic issue on giant reef aquaria. There's a take home in here about energy conservation because with the mega public displays such as Atlantis Marine World, Georgia Aquarium and Dome Aquarie (Berlin - Germany) - water pumping costs are the make or break factor.
My proposal is to utilize low energy propeller driven pumps (Tunze's etc) and closed loops for majority of water flow in tank. The lack of fighting head pressure offers significant energy benefits here. Then relatively low flow rate through the sump/refugia minimizing the size of pump needed to deal with the necessary head pressure, combined with needle wheel skimmer fed by gravity from the overflow.
Despite the insulation benefits of acrylic - I won't go there. I would consider solar light tube or skylight supplementation of the lighting but this comes with some sacrifices. Geothermal heating/cooling, cooling with a heat exchanger off a well, solar panels, wind turbines in the back yard etc are all on my list of kicking around with the numbers. Also playing around with some intermittent (i.e. short time period) high light periods combined with lower wattage "ambient lighting".
All good stuff.
No the MH unit on the comparison display did not have supplemental fluorescents if I recall correctly. Jim Davies was with me he may be able to confirm.
Really need to get my hands on a PAR quantum meter to confirm. Worth checking into the claim that T-5's are more efficient than LEDs. I do know that the heat coming off the top of the Tek-5 units that I've been using is significantly more than what I experienced with the Solaris unit.
DrBronx: Yes I realize that the Solaris unit is v. expensive at this point but if the demand is there, the competition will arrive and the R&D costs are recouped - you can be sure that the cost will come down. I also know that there's more on the horizon for LED technology - it's just going to keep getting better and better.
As to other initiatives for electricity use reductions, have a read of this months Coral Magazine - fantastic issue on giant reef aquaria. There's a take home in here about energy conservation because with the mega public displays such as Atlantis Marine World, Georgia Aquarium and Dome Aquarie (Berlin - Germany) - water pumping costs are the make or break factor.
My proposal is to utilize low energy propeller driven pumps (Tunze's etc) and closed loops for majority of water flow in tank. The lack of fighting head pressure offers significant energy benefits here. Then relatively low flow rate through the sump/refugia minimizing the size of pump needed to deal with the necessary head pressure, combined with needle wheel skimmer fed by gravity from the overflow.
Despite the insulation benefits of acrylic - I won't go there. I would consider solar light tube or skylight supplementation of the lighting but this comes with some sacrifices. Geothermal heating/cooling, cooling with a heat exchanger off a well, solar panels, wind turbines in the back yard etc are all on my list of kicking around with the numbers. Also playing around with some intermittent (i.e. short time period) high light periods combined with lower wattage "ambient lighting".
All good stuff.
Ellery
Member
If someone wants to support a good cause please check out and support the Earthrace team that my friend had quit his job to help out to create awareness for use of BIOFuels.
see http://www.earthrace.net/ The crew is from New Zealand and the owner of the boat sold his whole business and left his family to make this awareness effort possible.
This sight has alot of kool info about earth conservation.
see http://www.earthrace.net/ The crew is from New Zealand and the owner of the boat sold his whole business and left his family to make this awareness effort possible.
This sight has alot of kool info about earth conservation.
RyanM
New member
I may well be the materialistic one in the group but I cant help but focus on the fact that you are considering taking down your 125. If you are doing it because you no longer want it then that is one thing, but to give up your hobby that you have grown for years and are obviously good at just to prove to yourself that you are a good person doing your part is quite another. While I do believe even the smallest of consumers can make a difference. I dont believe that giving up somthing you enjoy is worth the reward. I may be wrong in assuming you wont get any enjoyment out of an empty wall and a lower electric bill, you may but I cant believe that the statment you make in doing so will cause any drop what so ever in future warming issues. The world is filled with factories that pump tons of garbage into the atmosphere minute by minute every minute of every day. It goes so far beyond we the little guys that its not even an issue. Till the world leaders make up there minds to change the way the world does business, nothing will change. I do my part the best I can by not wasting electricity,food,matierials and driving my car as little as possible (gas prices play a major roll here) but life is to short. Live it well while you can. Im sorry jerry but the few light bulbs you are burning over your tanks is a grain of sand on all the oceans combined campared to the industrial waste and polution the world as a whole puts out. I commend you on your efforts but cant help to think that it will do little if nothing to help the big picture. I will say that if its something you want to do, far be it from me to tell you what to do or not to do. Its your life to live and if it lets you sleep better at night im all for it. I just hate thinking that you are doing it to help the world in some small way while degrading your own happiness in the proccess.
Hope you reconsider the tear down.
Ryan
Hope you reconsider the tear down.
Ryan
dreaminmel
New member
I think he was more in the mindset of trying to find more energy efficient ways to operate his tank.
One thing that I think needs to be said... you are correct when you say one person will not fix it all. However, trends start by a select group of people finding a new way of doing something and then people around them start to follow suit. If those "adventurers" listened to those who would tell them it's a waste of time we would not have many of our "toys" of today. I say if someone wants to do their part and they feel good about it to go right ahead. I have always admired the people that lead by example. Shows they don't give much creedence to what others think and that, in my eyes, is worth more respect than anything.
I didn't get to call RG&E today as I spent my lunch break on the phone w/ Time Warner... will call them tomorrow and share any newfound info w/ you all. =)
One thing that I think needs to be said... you are correct when you say one person will not fix it all. However, trends start by a select group of people finding a new way of doing something and then people around them start to follow suit. If those "adventurers" listened to those who would tell them it's a waste of time we would not have many of our "toys" of today. I say if someone wants to do their part and they feel good about it to go right ahead. I have always admired the people that lead by example. Shows they don't give much creedence to what others think and that, in my eyes, is worth more respect than anything.
I didn't get to call RG&E today as I spent my lunch break on the phone w/ Time Warner... will call them tomorrow and share any newfound info w/ you all. =)
lessthanlights
New member
Re: Decreasing "Carbon Footprint"
I applaud your effort but before you jump ship do a little research behind Al Gore's "science" and his hypocritical lifestyle then check out this article about your new Prius.
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
I applaud your effort but before you jump ship do a little research behind Al Gore's "science" and his hypocritical lifestyle then check out this article about your new Prius.
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
RyanM
New member
Nothing wrong in finding more efficient ways to run a tank. I however am not on the "I can change things by example" mindset. I am on the "what saves my wallet the wear and tear of opening and closing it" mindset. If that helps the world in some way thats great for all involved. I do believe we as humans on this earth consume natural resorces at an alarming rate. Fact still remains that it is not the little people that have the power to change this fact. Doesnt mean i believe that gives us the right to waste what ever we can and to disregard the resources we use as trivial. Buy a car that gets 60 mpg, fantastic. Change lights to less operating electrical usage also fantastic. But giving up what we love to do for the so called good of the world based on inacurate or at very least inconclusive data on global warming to me is a futile attemp at changing the way all peoples live.
And a very sad day for reefers all over If Jerry desides to take down one of the nicest tanks ive ever had the privledge of watching grow.
Had to edit that in because its the whole point i am trying to make
And a very sad day for reefers all over If Jerry desides to take down one of the nicest tanks ive ever had the privledge of watching grow.
Had to edit that in because its the whole point i am trying to make
Last edited:
five.five-six
Well-known member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9674047#post9674047 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nwrogers
Prove it! You said you can cite work by respected scientists that can back your claims than do it. Put your money where your mouth is show and some proof that it is a blind promise as you claim
it can not be done... the debate is over...er I do not ever remember there being a debate. if you are one of the "man made global warming cool-aid drinkers" I am sure you can not watch this entire video, it rips the whole man made global warming to academic shreds
warning, pull up a chair and get some popcorn, this runs about an hour but you can pause it and go back to it but if you are part of the "global warming religion" you may want to know what the other side is saying
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Documentary Film
it is a good watch, not dry or boring
I do love this hobby Ryan, especially due to the many terrific people such as yourself and others on URS that I would not have met were it not for our shared interest. I am not interested in being a martyr and if I do dismantle the tanks it will be for a variety of reasons, the energy consumption issue being but one. The time and expense that this hobby demands is considereable and I at some point I will need to free up both to pursue other interests such as writing and travelling. The incredible pictures posted by Scuba Namena remind me how much I miss diving and seeing reefs in their natural state. That's what initially got me into this hobby in the first place. The irony is that since falling into this hobby, it has made it increasingly difficult to travel. In the interest of making my reef one of lower energy demand and reducing expense, I never invested in the automated systems that would make it eaier to travel. I have no chiller, kalk or calcium reactor or auto top off systems and I continue to drip kalk or two part additives. While I do have a neighbor who is kind enough to care for my tanks when I'm gone, there is a fair amount for him to do such that I hate to burden him with it for long periods. I have enjoyed the challenge of demonstrating that a nice sps reef can be maintained on a fairly "bare bones" arrangement, but there is a hidden price to pay for that. So I'm thinking I will dismantle the 75 gallon softie tank and possibly start turning the 125 into a mixed soft and LPS tank which requires somewhat less energy (nix the halides) and intensive care. So keep your eyes peeled, there may be some serious sps colonies for sale soon. But even if I decide to can both home tanks, that still leaves me with my office reef. So I wouldn't be leaving the hobby altogether. That I could never do.
thriceanangel
Active member
All I can say is wow... I haven't even seen all of it. But wow. That is great!
dreaminmel
New member
So we have groups of well educated scientists disagreeing with other groups of well educated scientists. We already know that our human activities can cause acid rain and die-off of aquatic life due to run off. Is it really so far fetched that our human activities could cause a change in our climate that has not already happened in the past? One that they cannot foresee because there are no historic models for comparison? I see a lot of scientists stating we are just going through a normal pattern of climate change. We may be, then again we may not. That video showed in history times of both lush vegetation throughout and solid ice/snow throughout. Even one of those scenarios could cause a great big problem with our planet's population of people. Could we adapt? Probably. I don't feel mass hysteria is in order nor do I feel ignoring it is the answer either.
Also, in respect to the video stating this has become a political agenda, I'm sure to a large degree it has. I am sure that a lot of the scientists are getting ticked at those who disagree just like I'm sure a lot of scientists snubbed their noses and laughed at the ones that first started researching global warming. Neither group is innoccent so I'm not going to get into that aspect of it all. The fact remains, and was confirmed by the scientists who disagree, that our climate is changing. The disagreement is about what is causing it. Our scientific technology is nowhere near as advanced as it needs to be for us to be able to run some tests and say for certain what the actual proven cause is. So then, that leaves us analysing the data we can prove and trying to come to a reasonable guess or hypothesis...
I am a cold weather wuss. I also detest extreme heat. If there IS anything I can do to avoid having to live in one of those extremes I will do it and if someone would like to look at me as trying to be "holier than thou" then that is their perogative but they would be mistaken.
People will always be on one side or the other. I learned watching my born again mother try to persuade non believers long ago that people will only actually hear what they want to hear. There are a select few that will always consider both sides of a scenario and I for one hope that one of those few ends up being our next president. Being open minded can be very rewarding as long as you educate yourself along the way with valid and trustworthy information. I do not like some of the scare tactics that have been used in this country and if politics start taking this global warming theory in that direction I can foresee a lot of people getting a bit irritated with that and in the long run it'll probably only hurt the originally intended goal.
Long winded tonight... sorry... anyways, that is where I stand on all of this and I would like to continue learning of other ways we can cut down on energy with our tanks. My contribution: I always place my tank on an interior wall for insulation purposes. I also let evaporation (2.5gallons per day) cool my tank rather than running a chiller. I have only 4 pumps in my system. Skimmer, return and two powerheads. Hopefully some of this makes up for the fact that I like having 1040watts of light over my tank... probably not though... =)
Keep the suggestions and information coming everyone.
Also, in respect to the video stating this has become a political agenda, I'm sure to a large degree it has. I am sure that a lot of the scientists are getting ticked at those who disagree just like I'm sure a lot of scientists snubbed their noses and laughed at the ones that first started researching global warming. Neither group is innoccent so I'm not going to get into that aspect of it all. The fact remains, and was confirmed by the scientists who disagree, that our climate is changing. The disagreement is about what is causing it. Our scientific technology is nowhere near as advanced as it needs to be for us to be able to run some tests and say for certain what the actual proven cause is. So then, that leaves us analysing the data we can prove and trying to come to a reasonable guess or hypothesis...
I am a cold weather wuss. I also detest extreme heat. If there IS anything I can do to avoid having to live in one of those extremes I will do it and if someone would like to look at me as trying to be "holier than thou" then that is their perogative but they would be mistaken.
People will always be on one side or the other. I learned watching my born again mother try to persuade non believers long ago that people will only actually hear what they want to hear. There are a select few that will always consider both sides of a scenario and I for one hope that one of those few ends up being our next president. Being open minded can be very rewarding as long as you educate yourself along the way with valid and trustworthy information. I do not like some of the scare tactics that have been used in this country and if politics start taking this global warming theory in that direction I can foresee a lot of people getting a bit irritated with that and in the long run it'll probably only hurt the originally intended goal.
Long winded tonight... sorry... anyways, that is where I stand on all of this and I would like to continue learning of other ways we can cut down on energy with our tanks. My contribution: I always place my tank on an interior wall for insulation purposes. I also let evaporation (2.5gallons per day) cool my tank rather than running a chiller. I have only 4 pumps in my system. Skimmer, return and two powerheads. Hopefully some of this makes up for the fact that I like having 1040watts of light over my tank... probably not though... =)
Keep the suggestions and information coming everyone.
five.five-six
Well-known member
you really need to watch the whole documentary. I particular found 18min 45 seconds compelling, it sort of puts egg on al gores face. at 21 minutes it explains why. apparently, the ocean is far and away the largest contributor of Co2 dwarfing the measly 6.5 gig a ton from all human activity. and as we all know when salt water temp increases, it releases Co2, as it gets colder, it can absorb more Co2
Jaymeany
New member
Ok, I'll even give people that it is a NORMAL pattern of change. ( There is no way I believe this being an educated person in a science field). So we should probably get ready for the net ice age. That is the natural turn of events when we have a global swing of this nature. We should keep on going the way we are and just help bring it a little quicker. Heck it's not our fault so why change our ways. Ok if you didn't figure out the sarcasm I'll tell you my real feelings.
We ARE responsible for the current global trends. Americans more than anyone. Eventually (read near future) we will not have natural coral reefs to dive and the ecosystems they support will be gone. The phytoplankton (supplying 3/4 of the earths oxygen) will die off or at least decrease limiting the production of oxygen. (Do we need that oxygen thingy? I think a few scientists said we didn't one time so I might be wrong.) We need to change our ways!
Is shutting down one reef tank or many going to help? I don't think energy wise it will. Our best course of action is to find alternative energy sources in order to cut down on pollutants and global warming effects. Since we are an energy hungry society our best bet is to make an effort at clean energy or harvesting the energy that is abundant around us.
Anthony's call to farms is a great way to do your part. Grow a species at home to have an affect on the environment. This way 4 to 5 less individuals are taken from the ocean, there are less next day shipping packages and therefore less of an impact on the environment. Sorry for my short fuse by when I thought in SC people thought that the environmental concerns about dumping oil from an oil change down a drain was a lie and that there was no proof of it's harm. Just one of my buttons. Have a great day.
Oh yeah if you don't want to find a way to fix Global warming go to your tank then turn up your heater 2-3C and let us all know how things go for ya.
We ARE responsible for the current global trends. Americans more than anyone. Eventually (read near future) we will not have natural coral reefs to dive and the ecosystems they support will be gone. The phytoplankton (supplying 3/4 of the earths oxygen) will die off or at least decrease limiting the production of oxygen. (Do we need that oxygen thingy? I think a few scientists said we didn't one time so I might be wrong.) We need to change our ways!
Is shutting down one reef tank or many going to help? I don't think energy wise it will. Our best course of action is to find alternative energy sources in order to cut down on pollutants and global warming effects. Since we are an energy hungry society our best bet is to make an effort at clean energy or harvesting the energy that is abundant around us.
Anthony's call to farms is a great way to do your part. Grow a species at home to have an affect on the environment. This way 4 to 5 less individuals are taken from the ocean, there are less next day shipping packages and therefore less of an impact on the environment. Sorry for my short fuse by when I thought in SC people thought that the environmental concerns about dumping oil from an oil change down a drain was a lie and that there was no proof of it's harm. Just one of my buttons. Have a great day.
Oh yeah if you don't want to find a way to fix Global warming go to your tank then turn up your heater 2-3C and let us all know how things go for ya.
five.five-six
Well-known member
and there in lies the problem. the entire "man made" global warming scam is driven by anti-Americanism and fueled by unfounded fear. there is no real scientific evidence that Co2 initiates or even has a CAUSAL EFFECT on temperature
Oh yeah if you don't want to find a way to fix Global warming go to your tank then turn up your heater 2-3C and let us all know how things go for ya.
I do every year
quote=ACIII
if temp > RT then col on
changes about 3 over the year... the globe has warmed 0.7 over the last 100 years
you need to watch the entire documentary that I posted
The Great Global Warming Swindle - Documentary Film
it will rock your world if you just see the whole thing
I do agree that it is a good idea to get off oil and all my decisions in equipment weigh heavily on efficiency..to save my electric bill. I am also a big proponent of tank raised and propagated inhabitants. we are decimating our reef with dynamite and cyanide
straight_path
New member
I have a new system cycling up that was built with efficiency in mind. It has slightly compressed foam within wood panels that wrap around the non-viewable tank glass and is way more effective than I could have imagined. I did it for noise suppression (mag18) and found it holds at 82deg. F with no heater and no lights (yet). Even with 1-175 10K and 95 watts of VHO actinic (old school ), the whole thing shouldn't peak past 400 watts.
Global warming aside, it's very possible energy prices are going to continue to rise and all of us will start feeling thin wallets as much from operating our tanks as from the constant need to upgrade.
), the whole thing shouldn't peak past 400 watts.Global warming aside, it's very possible energy prices are going to continue to rise and all of us will start feeling thin wallets as much from operating our tanks as from the constant need to upgrade.
I just finished watching the film. Very interesting indeed. I do try to keep an open mind and attempt to maintain an awareness of the multidimensional dynamics that are at play in our infinitely complex ecosystem. Perhaps we all need a dose of humilty and admit how much we don't ytet understand. Also, as a memeber of the scientific community and a reviewer for a scientific journal, I am keenly aware of the manner in which politics within the scientific community influences the course of scientific inquiry. But let us assume for a moment that the assumptions about human contributions to global warming are completely spurious, where does that leave us? I don't believe that the detractors would necessarily conclude that we all run out and buy Hummers. Many other factors would still necessitate caution in the unbridled consumption of fossil fuels. Other pollutants, environmental toxins and health risks still result. And of course the geopolitical factors of dependency on off shore fuel sources can not be ignored. But also consider that while global warming theorists may be influences by money and politics, so too is the other side. It is estimated that approximately two trillion barrels (or two trillio dollars worth - I can't remember which) of oil are still in the ground. There is certainly going to be a lot of monetary impetus to extract those resources.
While I may sleep easier knowing that my 400 watt halides may not be responsible for the melting of the polar ice caps, my core intuition still tells me that the mindful conservation of energy and other resources can only be a good thing. But I would never assume the knowledge or wisdom to tell others what to do. I still believe that in our attempt to be responsible reef keepers, it still behooves us to seek ways to reduce energy utilization. if nothing else, you''ll save on your energy bills and be able to buy more frags
While I may sleep easier knowing that my 400 watt halides may not be responsible for the melting of the polar ice caps, my core intuition still tells me that the mindful conservation of energy and other resources can only be a good thing. But I would never assume the knowledge or wisdom to tell others what to do. I still believe that in our attempt to be responsible reef keepers, it still behooves us to seek ways to reduce energy utilization. if nothing else, you''ll save on your energy bills and be able to buy more frags
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