Dinoflagellates - anyone locally beat these things?

[mattix]

Mattix - thanks for the feedback. Curious what kind of cleanup crew you added? That is one thing that really puzzled me at first: the majority of the info I could find on dinos stated that you would have a mass snail die off as the dinos are toxic. I have never had any snails die, in fact I have lots of baby snails as well.

I read that too a few days after ordering the cuc, luckliy they've all been doing pretty well. My sand was noticeably cleaner after adding them. I got the 55 gallon cleaner package with hermit crabs for my 75 gal. tank.

51- dwarf ceriths
17- Florida Ceriths
14- Nerites
13- Hermits
19- Nassarius

 

[Vanpire]

I read that too a few days after ordering the cuc, luckliy they've all been doing pretty well. My sand was noticeably cleaner after adding them. I got the 55 gallon cleaner package with hermit crabs for my 75 gal. tank.

51- dwarf ceriths
17- Florida Ceriths
14- Nerites
13- Hermits
19- Nassarius

Sorry to hijack the thread but can you get these cleaner packages during the summer months. Any losses?

 

[Mael]

you can, and most online vendors will ship with cold packs or well insulated. I got some in from reefs2go and from getyourpods recently and both times 90% of the snails survived I would say, only ones that had issues were the ultra tiny cerith.

If your looking for sand sifting lean more towards nassarius and if you can add in a conch and tiger tail cucumber they really help out as well, even if you have one of each.....Im actually still looking for a tiger tail. my little fighting conch is active all day.

 

[vanillagorila]

Sorry to hijack the thread but can you get these cleaner packages during the summer months. Any losses?

I ordered some snails from reef cleaners and it didn't have any cold packs. I had a lot of dead loss. I am waiting until at least Oct or Nov before I order any live stock again.

 

[bambam918]

Nope. Did not have a ATS at the time. I have one now and really like it. I am planning a new build for the ATS to make it look cleaner.

I did not do lights out since that does not solve the issue at hand. I think if you get your nutrients under control, raise your ALK, add a sump/ATS and suck the slime/air bubbles out you will see great results.

Every few days I sucked the cyano/Dino's out and replaced with salt water. I also did WC changes every week for a month. Some times I did 20% some times 10%. Doing all this really helped.

 

[rocknut]

Nope. Did not have a ATS at the time. I have one now and really like it. I am planning a new build for the ATS to make it look cleaner.

I did not do lights out since that does not solve the issue at hand. I think if you get your nutrients under control, raise your ALK, add a sump/ATS and suck the slime/air bubbles out you will see great results.

Every few days I sucked the cyano/Dino's out and replaced with salt water. I also did WC changes every week for a month. Some times I did 20% some times 10%. Doing all this really helped.

bambam, thanks for your feedback. I agree with you about the lights out: I was able to "dial them back" with a three day lights out, but they only returned once I returned to a normal light cycle. Seems like a lights out period with some other more aggressive treatment helps as the lack of lights knocks them down a few notches, and gives whatever else you are doing more of a chance.

Now I am faced with a decision to make regarding how to go forward. My EcoBAK pellets have really kicked in (just restarted them about five weeks ago), and my PO4 is down to 0 (0.00 on the Hanna Phosphate meter, and 1 ppb on the Hanna Ultra Low Range Phosphorus meter), and NO3 is holding at about 4. So the pellets are doing a really good job with keeping the nutrients low, but at these levels I know I can't raise my ALK much higher than 8.0 before the SPS will start to burn. Not sure which path to go down at this point:

A) take the biopellets offline? I have a refugium chamber in my sump that is dry at this point (my pellet reactor is sitting in it), that I could put some more live rock and chaeto in, and light this up to begin removing nutrients. With the pellets offline, I could start raising my ALK from its current level of 7.5 dkh up to 9 or 10.
I haven't been able to find much info on how the biopellets react regarding dinos. I was basically dino free for about 5 weeks until last weekend, after having them for the prior few months. The only change I made was increasing the flow in my biopellet reactor that caused some of the biofilm slime to be released (could see it on the water surface of the water in my sump). The dinos were back within 24 hours of this biofilm. I suppose this could be a coincidence as I was also increasing my light period, but I have to wonder if the bacteria in the pellet biofilm didn't feed the dinos and cause them to pop back up?

B) Leave the EcoBAK biopellets online, knowing that they are doing their job of reducing nutrients way down, but knowing that I can't increase my alk much more than its present level of 7.5 dkh?

As always, thanks to everyone for reading this and offering your advice. It is very appreciated.

Rocky

 

[bambam918]

I suggest taking your ALK to 11. Once I did and kept it there, I saw a huge difference. I maintain my ALK at 11 still. My SPS corals look great and are growing well too

 

[druckle]

A possible control for dinoflagellates?

A possible control for dinoflagellates?

I have had some localized areas of what MIGHT be dinoflagellates pop up now and then in my 225 for several months without them increasing at all. I'm not absolutely sure they are indeed dinoflagellates but I have one of my quarantine tanks also with the same thing and both are brown somewhat short stringy things with prolific bubbles when the lights are on. In the quarantine tank if I leave lights off they disappear relatively quickly but return when the lights go back on. Sounds like dinoflagellates to me but who knows.

In the main tank I've been running a Vecton 600 UV sterilizer (I think it's a 25 watt unit) with very low flow through it since pretty much day one. I also run a large Reef Dyamics skimmer and GFO on the main tank but no other filtration other than some Chaeto and Sea Lettuce in a 55 gallon refugium separate from my sump. The nitrates and phosphates in this tank always measure 0 but the Chaeto and Sea Lettuce grow profusely so I'm sure the 0 readings are not indicative of a real 0. The tank has four medium sized tangs, a rabbit fish, flame angel, ocellaris clown, maroon clown royal gramma and a benghai cardinal and only one fairly large frog spawn coral. There are also a lot of various species of snails present. I would rate the bio load as moderate.

There is a lot of live rock in the tank and a separate area without about 5 gallons of Seachem Matrix. I feed pretty heavily. The combination of the moderate bio load and the large amount of rock/matrix apparently keeps nitrates totally in check without having to worry about biopellets or other carbon dosing for nitrate control. I never have had any other hair algae etc.

As I said I'm not sure if the stuff I see really are dinoflagellates but they never increase with the combination of filtration I'm using and the addition of the UV sterilizer (which I think may be killinga lot of them when they are in their free circulating mode when the lights are off). This experience probably should be taken with a grain of salt but personally I'm convinced that a natural way of keeping nitrates down and the UV sterilizer are helping to keep a healthy tank. Just something to consider.

 

[rocknut]

I have had some localized areas of what MIGHT be dinoflagellates pop up now and then in my 225 for several months without them increasing at all. I'm not absolutely sure they are indeed dinoflagellates but I have one of my quarantine tanks also with the same thing and both are brown somewhat short stringy things with prolific bubbles when the lights are on. In the quarantine tank if I leave lights off they disappear relatively quickly but return when the lights go back on. Sounds like dinoflagellates to me but who knows.



In the main tank I've been running a Vecton 600 UV sterilizer (I think it's a 25 watt unit) with very low flow through it since pretty much day one. I also run a large Reef Dyamics skimmer and GFO on the main tank but no other filtration other than some Chaeto and Sea Lettuce in a 55 gallon refugium separate from my sump. The nitrates and phosphates in this tank always measure 0 but the Chaeto and Sea Lettuce grow profusely so I'm sure the 0 readings are not indicative of a real 0. The tank has four medium sized tangs, a rabbit fish, flame angel, ocellaris clown, maroon clown royal gramma and a benghai cardinal and only one fairly large frog spawn coral. There are also a lot of various species of snails present. I would rate the bio load as moderate.



There is a lot of live rock in the tank and a separate area without about 5 gallons of Seachem Matrix. I feed pretty heavily. The combination of the moderate bio load and the large amount of rock/matrix apparently keeps nitrates totally in check without having to worry about biopellets or other carbon dosing for nitrate control. I never have had any other hair algae etc.



As I said I'm not sure if the stuff I see really are dinoflagellates but they never increase with the combination of filtration I'm using and the addition of the UV sterilizer (which I think may be killinga lot of them when they are in their free circulating mode when the lights are off). This experience probably should be taken with a grain of salt but personally I'm convinced that a natural way of keeping nitrates down and the UV sterilizer are helping to keep a healthy tank. Just something to consider.

Hi Druckle,

Thanks for sharing your experiences - very appreciated. I'm taking steps to move in the same direction as you. I am going to set up up a 20 gallon frag tank plumbed into my system, and use it as a refugium, filling it with live rock and macro algae. Also looking at adding some Marine Pure blocks to my sump to add to NO3 processing.

Also interesting about the UV. It makes sense that the UV would be able to zap the free swimming dinos after lights out. May have to look into that as well.

 

[rocknut]

Just wanted to take a moment and update this thread in case any finds it in a search down the road or something.

I haven't seen any dinos in the tank for about three months now, and am fairly confident that they are gone. Here is what I did:

1. I came to the conclusion that my sand bed was the issue with my tank. As the tank was only 1 year old, I figured it was worth the risk to remove most of it, and run the tank with a +/- 1" sandbed going forward. Started doing 5 gallon water changes about three times a week, siphoning out sand with each change. Took about a month to remove about 75% of my sand, and take the sandbed from around 3-4" down to an average of about an inch. I was lucky that because the sandbed was young, I didn't disturb any nasty pockets during my siphoning/stirring. Honestly amazed at what this has done for the tank. I pulled my biopellets about six weeks ago, and have not used any GFO in months, and yet my PO4 is testing 0.00 on the Hanna Checker (the low range as well as the Ultra low range). My NO3 has been about 3-4. The amount of filth and gunk I was pulling out of the sandbed was disgusting. I have since added a Diamond Watchman Goby that is doing a great job of stirring the sandbed.

2. When I originally designed my sump I did it in such a way that the dry compartment that held my recirculating biopellet reactor, could be turned into a wet refugium compartment. I went ahead and filled this up, and added a ball of Chaeto to this compartment and a Reefbreeders "fuge light" (high powered RED LED light). Fired this up at about the same time I started removing the sandbed. The Chaeto ball serious went from a tennis ball sized clump to a mass about 10" x 10" and 3" thick in about a week. Growth has since slowed way down now.

3. Added a fan to run over my external overflow, and dialed the chiller down to run the tank between 78.5-79.5 degrees (from 80-81 before).

4. Since I had removed the biopellets and the tank was no longer ULNS (if it ever truly was as the sandbed was definitely chocked full of nutrients), I slowly over the course of about 4 weeks bumped my Alk from 7.5 up to 9 dkh.

5. I did slightly reduce my photo period down to five hours, but didn't do any black-outs, etc. Honestly, the more sand I stirred and removed, the fewer dinos the next day.

6. Finally, I bought a 16 gallon frag tank, and plumbed it into my main tank sump. The frag tank sits right next to the display, and I have a separate pump sitting in the sump, that first feeds the chiller, then into the frag tank, which then drains into the refugium compartment in my main sump. I added about twenty pounds of additional live rock to the frag tank, which I feel bumped up the overall filtration of the system. I plan to add different kinds of macro algae, and a few corals to this tank as a sort of second refugium/second display tank.

Anyway, I don't know if I had the typical nightmare dinos that you read about, but they were definitely a problem, and I fought with them for around 4 months and lost a lot of coral in the meantime. I will never run a tank with more than a 1" sandbed again that is for sure. No doubt many people have good luck with DSBs, so not knocking them, but for me the shallow sand bed with lots of sifters seems to be the way to go.

 

[drtrash]

Hydrogen peroxide, 1ml/ 10 gal does the trick usually takes 7 daily treatments, it works no side effects

 

[rocknut]

Hydrogen peroxide, 1ml/ 10 gal does the trick usually takes 7 daily treatments, it works no side effects

This was next on the bill to try, honestly. If at all possible I wanted to address the issues that caused the dinos in the first place, however.

 

[hypnoj]

this is good information. I've been battling dino's for several months now. My tank is going on it's 7th year. I've tried weekly and aggressive water changes for months with no effect. I've tried cutting back my feeding and I've also tried lights out with no effect. I've also tried dosing microbacter 7 heavily with only minimal effect. I only use a skimmer in my sump. I doubt I could grow any macro algae. I have no algae in my tank at all and have not had to clean my glass for a few months now. I'm going to try increasing my alk up to 10 or 11 and then try H2O2. I'll keep ya posted.

 

[LelandF.]

I beat mine too with peroxide, I used 2ml/10gal everyday for 7 days. Peroxide raises the ORP quickly in the tank. Leather corals are very sensitive to ORP changes, and mine stayed closed and looked very rough for 2 months after the treatment. Everything else looked great and continues to look great during and after the treament.

Leland

 

[nematode]

To everyone who is battling "dinoflagellates" on this thread.
Could you provide the basis that you used to deduce that what you are actually fighting is dinoflagellates? Did any of you actually look at the organism under a microscope?
Why do I ask?
Because I've been dealing with an outbreak I would have described as similar to what is being described as a "dinoflagellate outbreak" for many months in my quarantine tank, and I finally looked at the slimey (yellow/green/light brown) stuff that was taking over my tank with a compound microscope.
I don't think it's a dinoflagellate.
Looks like it's a Eudorina sp. in the family of volvocaceae based on its appearance.
I am consulting with a colleague on the ID.

I wonder whether all the folks describing these outbreaks are battling the same (or very similar things), or if similar appearing mucoidal growths might be caused by very different organisms.

 

[nematode]

Here is a photo of the tank and a photo of the algae. Scale bar is 22.5 um. This is a very small algae.

 

[hypnoj]

ughh.. I wish I had a good microscope to look at mine. Nothing I've tried on this thread is working.

 

[nematode]

Even though this is not a dinoflagellate, it is a pain nevertheless.
This is a 10 gal tank with a 10 gallon sump I used to use as a coral Q tank.
I was running it bare. A few snails, some random small fragments of live rock,
and this thing started growing -- taking over. I have completely cleaned out the tank at least 3 times, scrubbing every rock, cleaning the whole tank, draining all the water, and then using water from my reef tank at a water change to fill the q tank back up. I haven't put ANY food in the tank for the whole period ~ 6 months, but each time this thing starta to grow and by 6 weeks it looks like the picture I posted.
LED lighting 450/daylight ( 50:50) maybe 20 watts total. dimmable, not sure exact what the wattage is running at.
No skimmer, just a little carbon and GFO.
Circulation is modest.
pH 8.2, NO3=0 phosphates =0, calcium 400, KH 8 Mg 1350 - specs of the tank from which each of the full change outs has come from.
I haven't tried any of the high pH, lights out, H2O2, etc treatments since they seem to have very variable and I'd argue low probability success.

I am going to try oryzalin (commercial name Surflan) on the recommendation of a plant microbial biologist colleague. It is a "plant specific" microtubule poison that is used as a pre-emergent herbicide. It has low human toxicity, moderate fish toxicity. I have no idea about invertebrates or zooxanthia. But since I only have a few pieces of soft coral in the tank, I don't think there is much to lose. At least I can determine if it will stop this outbreak - sort of- no good control. I can then add carbon, and try and seed the tank with some algae from my other tank with the hope of having a better algae take over.

 

[drtrash]

Hydro peroxide is a rapid oxidizer, ending in oxygen, that will clear that mess up not poison

 

[nematode]

I have my doubts that h202 will do anything given the rate of success on other cases (from looking at many other threads). Seems like many people completely break down their tanks out of frustration trying to get rid of this kind of stuff. But, I guess it can't hurt to try before moving to poison.