Dipped Zoas, now Nano is crashing, Help!

ReefWifey

ReefWifey

New member
Greetings -

A long time lurker, first time writer here. I've got a 12 gallon Nano that houses mostly Zoas. I've got a collection of about 20 kinds in there. I realized I had Nudibranches, caught some, and decided to follow Mucho's advice about dipping. So I made a 3 gallon batch as Mucho's directions said, fresh RO (no salt), temp 80, ph 8.2, 6 drops of Lugols (2 per gallon). I removed all my zoo frags and soaked them in the solution for 5 - 10 minutes. I shook them around, then placed them back in the Nano.

WELL. This morning when I got up, my snails were dead (or dying, I'm not sure), my clowns were laboring on the bottom of the tank, and a piece of galaxia I have in the tank looks roasted, no tissue left on it. The zoas are closed and look basically like they did when I put them in there last night. Anyone have any input on whats going on?!?!

:eek2:

Here are my thoughts:

1)Was the residual strong Lugol's solution left on the zoas when I put them back in the tank too much for the small nano enviroment causing toxic levels of iodine?

2)One of the larger button polys (Palys I believe) got a bit banged up and ticked off, and was looking mucosy when I put it back in. Is it possible that its letting off toxins that are affecting my clowns?

I did 2 water changes, 1 this morning, one last night, but they were only partial (2-3) gallons.

Ideas, comments, advice or even heckling is appreciated! :(
 
They could all be releasing toxins. After dipping corals I usually don't put them back in my tank right away. I put them in a bowl of tank water for a while to let some of the toxins and slime come off. If you have a way to run some carbon I would try that. Also maybe another water change if that doesn't show you any positive results. Just be careful with major changes with that size tank.
 
Thanks for the responses folks.......what do you mean by 'run some carbon'? I know my hubby put fresh carbon in the bag this morning, is that what you mean?
 
Yes that is what he means by running carbon. The water change sounds like a good idea. On a 12 gallon you could easily change 1-2 gallons and make a big dent in your water chemistry, good or bad. So if you do a water change then make sure your parameters all match before doing the change. (temp, pH, salinity...)
 
Hello ReefWifey, sorry to hear of your misfortune, but I can assure you with a great degree of certainty that it wasn't the dip that caused those issues. I have performed this dip on literally hundreds of colonies and frags over the years as well as many of my reefing buddies and the many reefers who have used it right here in this forum. There is an explanation though.

I think I stated the temp of the dip water should be 78 degrees or the same as your tank temp. I'm now using 5 or 6 drops per gallon with my dips. On the side of the Lugols bottle it recommends ( 40 ) drops per gallon. I'm no Chemist, but I think the saturation point above 0.06 NSW ( Natural Sea Water) would be greatly exceeded with 40 drops. So I think 3 drops per gallon in your case was not the issue.

Question

1. Did you notice any sponges on the rocks that were dipped?

2. Was the RO processed by you or a store?

3. Did you check it with a TDS meter?

4. Did you add anything else to your tank on the day in question?

5. Do you or did you check to see what the iodine/iodide levels were in your tank?

6. Did you dose your tank before or after the dip with Lugols at all?

You stated

"1)Was the residual strong Lugol's solution left on the zoas when I put them back in the tank too much for the small nano enviroment causing toxic levels of iodine?"

I doubt this is the reasons. When I had nudis, on more than one occasion in the past, I dipped over 100 colonies and put them all back into my 70 gallon tank with no negative affects at all. Others will testify to the same results. Again, you used 6 drops total, diluted by 2 gallons of water. Did any of the dipping water get into your tank by accident?

you wrote

"2)One of the larger button polys (Palys I believe) got a bit banged up and ticked off, and was looking mucosy when I put it back in. Is it possible that its letting off toxins that are affecting my clowns"

Toxins are real and this is a possible culprit. It happened to me many years ago with my prop tank. A friend gave me a paly frag and once I placed it into my prop, every single frag closed within minutes and each of them began to die one after another. I know for a fact the Palythoa Grandis do not tolerate a fresh water dip at all. With them I do a very serious exam and I try to submerge the rock into the dip only, and not the Grandis themselves.

I mean no harm by this and please do not take this as an insult. But are you sure you used Lugols? I remember many years ago that a guy used copper instead of Lugols by accident. I just had to ask.

I would run the carbon and get a Salifert Test kit for Iodine/iodide. Have the conditions changed since your initial post?

Mucho

PS. The bucket you used for the dip, was it clean? Are you aware if any other solvents, liquids etc. ever came in contact with the bucket?

Do you have any poly filters on hand?

This is baffling to say the least.
 
Hi Mucho,

Thanks so much for the well thought out response. No offense taken by any questions. I'm am such a noob with reef stuff. My husband has a lot more experience with them as he's had several tanks through the years, but I'm just learning.

It was Kent's Lugols solution, and I used 6 drops, with 3 gallons of water (so 2 drops per gallon).

1)No sponges on the rocks that I'm aware of, and I look at them pretty close.

2)RO was processed by a store. In the past we've made our own RO, but my hubby's system is fritzing and he's doing a new one. This batch of RO has been used for several water changes though with no problem.

3)Is the TDS meter the thingy that my hubby puts a drop of water on and looks through to see the salinity? If so, yes.

4)Nothing else added to the tank, I don't use any kind of suppliments or anything in it.

5)No I didn't and haven't checked the iodine levels, I don't have a kit that checks that (just the ph, amonia, nitrite, nitrate one). I think I'll run over to the store on my lunch break today and get a iodine test. Are there any other parameters you recommend I keep tabs on for happy, healthy zoas?

6)No dosing was done to the tank before or after.

The bucket was clean (a bucket we only use for water changes, etc.) What is a poly filter?

I tell ya, it's just wierd business. One clown died, the other seems to have bounced back. The astrea and nirites snails are dead, yet the two bumble bee snails and the cerith are fine. My few ricordias look horrible, I'm not sure they're gonna live, yet my plain green stripped mushrooms are fine. And my zoas....*sob*....I dunno how they are going to fair. Several of the colonies look like they're gonna open and be okay, yet others arn't looking good.

I notice with some of them, not only are they closed tight, but the outsides of some of the polyps are much more white, milky and hollowish looking. Does that mean they are dying?

The Palys that I spoke of having a hard time. They really do look awful. Should I remove them from the tank incase they are still giving off toxins? Can Paly toxins kill clown fish, snails, etc.? I know it can kill humans, but somehow I thought that sea critters would be used to it. I'm just assuming its a Paly, its what I see called 'button polyp' alot. Plain brown, long stocks, large flat heads, and it's got sediment formed into its base.]

Thanks for the response, I know don't consider yourself an 'expert', but advice from you an any one else with experience is so helpful.
 
IMO i think this could be a an issue of two much die off in that little of a tank.

On a percentage basis, how much of your total live rock came out of the tank and was dipped.

When you dip these rocks in RO/Iodine, the purpose is to kill the bad guys. But you also kill everything else on the rock. So there may be a lot of die off and in that small of a tank it could be a big problem. Sort of like starting a cycle again.

If you only dipped like 10% of the total rocks then I would say it's probably something else, but in a tank that small with 20 or so rocks being dipped, I am imagining that it's a large percentage of the total rock in the tank.

I may be way off, but anyway.. I think Mucho has some great questions/feedback on the situation. I would do a 50% water change (make sure the water you are using for the changes is good water and not contaminated) and then repeat the 50% water change every other day along with running carbon.

Good luck and keep us posted as to what you find out.

- CoralNutz
 
Just curious why your husband isn't giving you any input, not to be or sound rude BTW ? I think he is your greatest resource.


"3)Is the TDS meter the thingy that my hubby puts a drop of water on and looks through to see the salinity? If so, yes."

That's a Refractometer. The TDS Meter ( Total Dissolved Solids ). Here's a link to read more about them.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-04/rhf/feature/index.php

"5)No I didn't and haven't checked the iodine levels, I don't have a kit that checks that (just the ph, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate one). I think I'll run over to the store on my lunch break today and get a iodine test. Are there any other parameters you recommend I keep tabs on for happy, healthy zoas?"

I don't pull any punches when it come to testing. I have about 12 test kits, all Saliferts. Wow, just realized you have a 12 gallon nano. I would check everything with a nano. Why? Smaller tanks have a smaller margin of error. A spike in Ammonia in a 70 gallon is substantially less harmful than the same spike in a 12 gallon nano. This is why I always recommend more stringent details and testing with nanos to catch any marginal changes before they get out of hand and cause a major issue or crash. I would test PH, Alk, Cal, Nitrates, Amon and Phosphates at least once a week.


"I notice with some of them, not only are they closed tight, but the outsides of some of the polyps are much more white, milky and hollowish looking. Does that mean they are dying?"

Can't say without a picture. Remove the affected colonies and smell them for decay/die off. It will be weird smell, but you will know when you smell it. Doesn't mean the whole rock is dead, could be, or just some of the corals but not all. Using a dedicated set of regular tweezers, a fresh new razor blade or exacto knife, and wearing reef safe gloves, tug gently on different spot where zoos are. If the start to dislodge with ease and they have a whitish opaque color, or, they are collapsing with the same coloration or have a brownish, blackish or medium to dark green color, yes, they are dying or already dead. You will need to cut away everything that's decaying. Again, you must do this outside of the tank.

If they begin to detach by themselves in the water from the current with the above appearances, they are dead or dying as well. If portion are alive, then a bit of surgery may be required to remove the dead polyps to save the living. Do this on the outside of your tank in a bowl of tank water. Then move to a separate bowl and add a drop or 2 of Lugols to the bowl. Lugols is also a great antiseptic and valued for its medicinal properties. Then swoosh in a 3rd bowl of tank water then back into your tank.


"The Palys that I spoke of having a hard time. They really do look awful. Should I remove them from the tank incase they are still giving off toxins? Can Paly toxins kill clown fish, snails, etc.? I know it can kill humans, but somehow I thought that sea critters would be used to it. I'm just assuming its a Paly, its what I see called 'button polyp' alot. Plain brown, long stocks, large flat heads, and it's got sediment formed into its base.]"

I really think you need to bring your husband in on this. He would know if they were palys. The only Palys that I have ever had a negative response to a dip is the Grandis. If there are others, I stand corrected. I'm no expert for sure.

"IMO i think this could be a an issue of two much die off in that little of a tank."

I always say that the answer is right in front of us, we just have to find it. I agree CoralNutz, that was my next response. Here's the clue, both corals and fish were adversely affected. If you dipped every single rock in your tank, and placed it back into that Nano, which I didn't realize it was a nano until Coralnutz mentioned it, I'm confident that was the issue, not the dipping brew, but the fact that every piece of rock was dipped, that is if you dipped every rock. I guess I never even considered that possibility when I posted the dip. Now I feel bad. Could you tell us what you dipped. All the rocks in the tank, those with zoas on them as well as those without zoas?

Keeping running the carbon. No offense Coralnutz, but in this case, I wouldn't make major water changes up to %50. I would do a daily %10 maybe. No need to add any more undue stress on that system.

I don't think you lost your cycle more so than a spike maybe in Ammonia. Have you tested your amon yet? I would also test your Trates and Trites ASAP.

Here's a link for the poly filters. They are a must to have in my opinion.

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc...OD&Product_Code=POLY-FILTER&Category_Code=GFI

I would also remove everything that is dead or dying ASAP. If you don't, you're only defeating the purpose of the water changes.

Maintain a good current in the tank and run your actinic only for two days. When corals are stressed, try to avoid intense lighting as it will only deter them from expanding.

Keep feeding us as much info as possible. Yell at the hubby and tell him to lend a hand and document everything you do with your tank. When, how much, for how long, etc.

I hope know one calls me a big head or anything, I was only trying to help and I just threw out everything I could think of.

Mucho

PS, there's a wealth of knowledge in this forum and I'm confident that the guys/gals can shed much more light on this event.
 
Hey Mucho,

No offense taken, but obviously my husband has been in on all of this. He's had a few tanks off on and through the years, never anything small like a Nano. He doesn't need to be yelled at as no one of us, even you folks who have been doing this for decades, are experts....and he's puzzled by this one as well. Plus, zoa's have never been his thing so he wouldn't just 'know' a Paly from a non. I've read up on all the different types and know more than he on the subject of zoas than he does. The distinction is sometimes hard for even published experts to make.

Yeah...thats why I posted this in the zoa area and the Nano area because I'm sure its more of a 'nano' situation, being such a small environment. I've always check ph, amonia, nitrate and nitrite faithfully each week and done weekly water changes. I'll pick up the other tests tomorrow as we're going to That Fish Place in PA, a huge store. The local one I checked today didn't have anything more than what I'm already testing for (also Saliferts).

I dipped roughly a third of the rocks in the tank, perhaps a bit less, only those with zoas on them. My thoughts (of course after the fact, hindsight and such...) is that whatever it is, the iodine, or dead stuff, was too much for that small of an enviroment. The only thing thats leading me away from dead stuff is my amonia, nitrates and nitrites were pretty much zero as always, no changes in my water parameters dispite the fact I was looking at a tank full of fried looking critters.

I don't expect anyone will have the exact answer, if there was a psychic hotline for aquarium f#@# ups, it would be rich indeed. Thats why I like these forumns, a little bit of knowledge from anyone with a contribution often peices things together. Just don't expect my husband to be any more of a expert or psychic than you, or anyone else is.

With the popularity of nano tanks these days (and yes, we know that small tanks make the job harder, not easier), coupled with the almost fad-ish craze in collectimg zoas, you might want to add some kind of word of caution about dipping with such a small tank to your stickies.
 
I have Lugols dipped many zoas frags, and put them directly into a 20g nano. Never had a problem.
I suspect contamination. Maybe from the hands, maybe from the air.
Any fumes near the tank lately? Paint, bug bombs, neighborhood mosquito eradication programs in Maryland in the spring?
Any kids that may throw objects in the tank, or put dirty hands in? I don't doubt that at least a few tanks have been killed by kids thinking it was a wishing well and copper poisoning the tank with a single penny. I know of one guy who had it happen.
Hand lotion residue, Icyhot, new nail polish?

Who knows? This sounds fishy to me.
 
I would say if your amonia is at 0 and the fact that you only dipped about a third of the rock in the tank.

Has the situation changed at all?
 
Something, somehow, somewhere happened. I know it wasn't the dip. I few years ago, I dipped over 100 colonies and frags every other day for 12 days. If it was the dip, my tank would have been saturated with iodine.

I agree with Jive Turkey, somehow someway something got into that nano, but it wasn't the dip that caused it. Keep sharing everything that happens with the nano please.

Mucho
 
2cents.

I think coralnutz might have nailed it on the head, Ammonia.

Even though you're now testing and it's showing as 0, it could've been high the night of "the dip".
Elevated levels of ammonia can and will depress ph, besides being plain toxic themselves. Yet, they also get taken up by bacteria and other invertibrates rather quickly.

All it takes is an ammonia spike to cause this. The dieoff from the dip could've caused an ammonia spike. Besides the dead animals, everything seems to be returning to normal, right?
 
Hi all - Thanks for your continued concern. I got some additional testing kits over the weekend and water parameters look good. One thing that has me puzzled is the iodine, if I'm testing correctly its .02 - .03. When I read the test info do I understand correctly that it should be around .06? Anyway, I'd love to know what it is that killed off many things in the Nano, but so many water changes later I don't guess I will.

There is a few zoa frags that I lost completely, but most still have some polyps on them that seem healthy. Mucho, I did as you said and trimmed off any dead tissue and it seems to have helped. I also started using Kent's Nano parts A and B solution to help maintain stable water params and so far so good.

The only other thing of note is that algae is blooming a bit. That could be because most of my snails died off, I wanted to let the tank settle a bit and I'll probably get some more snails tomorrow.

Tonight I caught a few nudibranches, sigh.....which was the point of this whole exercise. I guess I'll stick with harvesting as many of them as I can and watching the tank closely rather than dipping again so soon after stablizing. I was thinking about getting a sixline and see if it will eat them.

Thanks for the support guys, I do love my little zoa garden. I'll take some pictures in a few days once things open back up a bit more and post them. Most of my favorites survived. I've got some new ones coming in too that I've been holding shipment on until things settle down.
 
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