DIY Auto-Top off with Solenoid
- Thread starter Zephrant
- Start date
NoFear29
New member
Zeph,
Are you looking into another solenoid or are you going to stick with this one and see how it holds up? How much of the copper could actually leech into the tank?
What about moving the solenoid to the input side of the RO/DI unit? Any contaminants would be filtered out by the RO unit.
NF29
Are you looking into another solenoid or are you going to stick with this one and see how it holds up? How much of the copper could actually leech into the tank?
What about moving the solenoid to the input side of the RO/DI unit? Any contaminants would be filtered out by the RO unit.
NF29
Zephrant
Premium Member
For now, I'm just using the existing one. I am of the opinion that the any leaching of metals would be pretty minor, and I think the Kalk reactor I have down-stream would help precipitate it out.
Some day later this year I may replace it, but I don't have the time for now.
Zeph
Some day later this year I may replace it, but I don't have the time for now.
Zeph
christopherl
Premium Member
Zeph, or anyone else for that matter can you give me a source of where the parts for a PIC could be obtained. These have been mentioned in a couple of other posts that I have read. One in particular was a fan setup on a sump that is temp. controlled. This sounds like a real viable solution to many simple control circuits. I have also read that they are not terribly explensive.
Thanks
Thanks
Zephrant
Premium Member
cali_reef said:
To be honest I gave up before I started. I just bought a second switch and a DPDT relay. Now I can set one switch to the low water level and the other switch to the high level. When the water level drops below the lower switch the relay closes and latches, pening up the solenoid. When the water level reaches the upper switch it breaks the relay contact and water flow stops.
It's a lot easier to set different levels this way and a little safer I think, but it isn't as simple as I was hoping for. Now if I could just find some acrylic solvent so I could mount the stupid thing and actually use it in the sump.
I plan on playing around with a capacitive sensor eventually so that nothing has to be in contact with water at all. Maybe I'll get some time this winter to do it.
Just stumbled on this thread, great idea. I'll have to run the wires from the AC float switch and the R.O. output under the house between the bathroom and living room for my set-up. It's probably a 10 ft run at the most. Regarding the brass parts, this is easily addressed by putting the solenoid on the input side of the R.O. unit. That way, you're subjecting municipal water to the brass, not R.O. water. It does mean a length of wiring between the float switch and the solenoid, but that's okay, don't you think?
THANKS for such a great idea. Oh yeah, for those who want to install this thing leak free in a sump wall, I'd definitely avoid tapping the acrylic. This stresses acrylic, and eventually it'll fail. If you don't want to use a bulkhead, just get a PVC 3/4" or 1" slip X 1/2" thread adapter. Drill your sump for that, and install it with weldon # 40. Just put a bead of #40 around the "flange" part of the adapter, like where the gasket on a bulkhead goes, set it in place, and give it a gentle twist to spread the cement. It'll last forever. In fact, in acrylic sumps, you could do away with bulkheads altogether and just use these PVC bushings and weldon #40. If one were to break, oh well, but that's unlikely.
Matt
THANKS for such a great idea. Oh yeah, for those who want to install this thing leak free in a sump wall, I'd definitely avoid tapping the acrylic. This stresses acrylic, and eventually it'll fail. If you don't want to use a bulkhead, just get a PVC 3/4" or 1" slip X 1/2" thread adapter. Drill your sump for that, and install it with weldon # 40. Just put a bead of #40 around the "flange" part of the adapter, like where the gasket on a bulkhead goes, set it in place, and give it a gentle twist to spread the cement. It'll last forever. In fact, in acrylic sumps, you could do away with bulkheads altogether and just use these PVC bushings and weldon #40. If one were to break, oh well, but that's unlikely.
Matt
Zephrant
Premium Member
Sounds good- The problem with putting it in front of the RO/DI unit is that it will cycle the RO unit fairly often. Each time the RO unit turns off, the water sitting in the unit gets cruddy as the water on the clean side mixes with the water on the waste side. When the pressure comes up again, it flushes that mixed water out both sides, putting some if it though the DI (if you have one) and then to the tank. While the DI should clean it up fine, it does tend to make the DI exhaust faster.
One solution to the above is to install a pressure tank and pressure cut-off switch.
Another easier/cheaper solution is to put the solenoid on a standard appliance timer. Set it to come on once a day for a few hours. Then the RO unit will come on once a day, fill the make-up water, then shut off. Much better than coming on 12 times a day and dosing a pint or two.
I see no problem with your distances for wiring- It is such a low draw, you could go 50' or more with 18 gauge wire.
Zeph
One solution to the above is to install a pressure tank and pressure cut-off switch.
Another easier/cheaper solution is to put the solenoid on a standard appliance timer. Set it to come on once a day for a few hours. Then the RO unit will come on once a day, fill the make-up water, then shut off. Much better than coming on 12 times a day and dosing a pint or two.
I see no problem with your distances for wiring- It is such a low draw, you could go 50' or more with 18 gauge wire.
Zeph
Zeph;
I had thought of the idea of using a timer at some point, but I'm concerned that I won't be able to dial in the right amount of make up to match evaporation, and what happens when the evaproation rate changes?
How about some combination of timer and AC float switch? Something like, float switch mounted a little higher than ideal sump level, going to the timer, which is set to produce a little on the high side of needed make up water.
Nomally, the level will be below the float switch, so, normally, it's on. Then the timer comes on, sump fills, maybe trips the float switch or timer clicks off (if I have the timer adjusted fairly close, it will go off shortly after anyway) Then evaporation starts lowering the sump level, but the filter won't come back on until the timer gets around anyway.
Also, this provides a bit of redundancy; both the float switch and the timer must be on to allow flow. Do you see any problems with this set up?
Matt
I had thought of the idea of using a timer at some point, but I'm concerned that I won't be able to dial in the right amount of make up to match evaporation, and what happens when the evaproation rate changes?
How about some combination of timer and AC float switch? Something like, float switch mounted a little higher than ideal sump level, going to the timer, which is set to produce a little on the high side of needed make up water.
Nomally, the level will be below the float switch, so, normally, it's on. Then the timer comes on, sump fills, maybe trips the float switch or timer clicks off (if I have the timer adjusted fairly close, it will go off shortly after anyway) Then evaporation starts lowering the sump level, but the filter won't come back on until the timer gets around anyway.
Also, this provides a bit of redundancy; both the float switch and the timer must be on to allow flow. Do you see any problems with this set up?
Matt
Zephrant
Premium Member
Sounds fine to me- It might not be too hard to adjust the timer, although the seasonal changes in evaporation might be a pain.
The problem with my current float switch is that it is underwater most of the time, so the snails crawl all over it. I need to angle it to keep it mostly out of the water, and add a backup I think.
It stuck on me again a few weeks ago- Another snail. This time I had the water flow cut down so it had only added 5 gallons or so before I noticed (200 gallon system).
Maybe I'll get some time this week to work on it. I have another float switch, but I forgot to drill the hole for it when I did a water change last (when the water level was low enough).
Zeph
The problem with my current float switch is that it is underwater most of the time, so the snails crawl all over it. I need to angle it to keep it mostly out of the water, and add a backup I think.
It stuck on me again a few weeks ago- Another snail. This time I had the water flow cut down so it had only added 5 gallons or so before I noticed (200 gallon system).
Maybe I'll get some time this week to work on it. I have another float switch, but I forgot to drill the hole for it when I did a water change last (when the water level was low enough).
Zeph
I figured out a way for someone to do this without drilling the sump. What you need is a PVC 1/2" threaded plug and a 1/2" threaded tee. What you do is attach the plug to the inside wall of your sump by cementing the top of the plug to the sump wall with weldon #40. You can hold it in place with tape; a little #40 may drip down, but basically it will stay put and the bond will be pretty strong, and you'll end up with more or less a threaded stud at water level. (Of course, you have to lower the level in your sump to do this.) You can then thread one side of the tee into it, thread the float switch into the other side of the tee, and run the wires out the center part of the tee, which should be pointing up.
It might work for a glass sump, too. Weldon #40 supposedly bonds to glass. You could use silicone for that; rough up the PVC a bit and it would probably hold. I wouldn't use weldon #16 for this. That's pretty weak stuff, especially with PVC. #40 is a polimerizing cement, 2 part. It's a bit of a pain to find, but way stronger than #16.
Who knows why I thought of this; I had to remove my sump anyway to drill it for my new skimmer in/out, so I drilled for this at the same time. Rather than threading acrylic, I'd really suggest to anyone doing this great top-off set up to use a PVC bushing or a bulkhead. I used a 1" slip X 1/2"FNPT bushing, cemented with weldon #40. It'll NEVER leak, and to me, it's much easier than threading.
Matt
It might work for a glass sump, too. Weldon #40 supposedly bonds to glass. You could use silicone for that; rough up the PVC a bit and it would probably hold. I wouldn't use weldon #16 for this. That's pretty weak stuff, especially with PVC. #40 is a polimerizing cement, 2 part. It's a bit of a pain to find, but way stronger than #16.
Who knows why I thought of this; I had to remove my sump anyway to drill it for my new skimmer in/out, so I drilled for this at the same time. Rather than threading acrylic, I'd really suggest to anyone doing this great top-off set up to use a PVC bushing or a bulkhead. I used a 1" slip X 1/2"FNPT bushing, cemented with weldon #40. It'll NEVER leak, and to me, it's much easier than threading.
Matt
manderx
New member
i got mine to stop rapidly cycling on/off by directing the output to a mini carlson-surge bucket. i have a quart-ish container with a siphon in in. it's gotta fill the whole way up before a drop hits my sump, then it all siphons out and then breaks the siphon so it has to fill all the way up again next time.
to keep my float switches clean and because i don't have any baffles in my sump, i have them mounted in a little 2.5 gallon critter-cage. i just dropped my pump in and put the lid back on. the lid strains everything going in. the only problem is i had to weight it down to keep it from floating. might be a little tougher to use with an external pump, but you guys are smart.
to keep my float switches clean and because i don't have any baffles in my sump, i have them mounted in a little 2.5 gallon critter-cage. i just dropped my pump in and put the lid back on. the lid strains everything going in. the only problem is i had to weight it down to keep it from floating. might be a little tougher to use with an external pump, but you guys are smart.
I just thought Id chime in on this one.
I bought one of these
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20758&item=2326802657
and made on of these with it (didnt want to spend that much $$)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20755&item=2338210040
the float interrupts the neutral lead of the cord and thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s it!!
Wired it up to an extension cord, to turn on a powerhead. When sump level drops, powerhead turns on and fills the sump again.
Powerhead is in a 15 gallon behind the tank, that fills with RO water automaticly from my RO unit, Which by the way, came with a float switch to fill the reservoir for $5. (they are for sale at FFexpress also) The RO unit I bought was designed to fill 5gal alhambra bottles.
This is a very simple solution, Not to insult anyone, but it seams like you guys are all spending way too much time and effort to ad water to your sump.
I follow an acronym that I was taught early in life K.I.S.S. ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œKeep It Simple Stupidââ"šÂ¬Ã‚Â
No clicking, no failures, no wiring or electronic stuff, (hardly) all I get is an auto top off for less than $10 that has worked for 8 months now flawlessly.
Good Luck All.
I bought one of these
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20758&item=2326802657
and made on of these with it (didnt want to spend that much $$)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20755&item=2338210040
the float interrupts the neutral lead of the cord and thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s it!!
Wired it up to an extension cord, to turn on a powerhead. When sump level drops, powerhead turns on and fills the sump again.
Powerhead is in a 15 gallon behind the tank, that fills with RO water automaticly from my RO unit, Which by the way, came with a float switch to fill the reservoir for $5. (they are for sale at FFexpress also) The RO unit I bought was designed to fill 5gal alhambra bottles.
This is a very simple solution, Not to insult anyone, but it seams like you guys are all spending way too much time and effort to ad water to your sump.
I follow an acronym that I was taught early in life K.I.S.S. ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œKeep It Simple Stupidââ"šÂ¬Ã‚Â
No clicking, no failures, no wiring or electronic stuff, (hardly) all I get is an auto top off for less than $10 that has worked for 8 months now flawlessly.
Good Luck All.
Last edited:
kstockman
New member
Sort of late in getting into this thread, but I thought that I would chime in.
I you a very similar setup to the one described initially in the thread, but with one major difference. I use the solenoid/ float switch to fill a 30 gallon trash can. I have the solenoid on the inlet side of the RO/DI system and fill the trash can through the kent marine float vavle.
The trash can has a bulkhead on the bottom (the can is raised off the floor with 2x4s. I have a pump that pumps water up to a second trash can that is directly above the RO/DI filled can. I pump water from the lower can to the upper can 2-3 times per week. The water in the upper reservoir is then gravity fed to the sump via a float switch. I have a stand pipe in the upper reservoir that is at about the 20-25 gallon level. This way if I forget to turn off the pump, the water will flow back down to the bottom reservoir (my previous system did not have this and I got a couple of floods). This this system I have isolated the city water pressure from the tank. In addition, since I only fill up the lower reservoir a couple of times per week, the solenoid is open for long periods of time and I don't have to deal with the constant on/off of the RO/DI system.
In addition to the water top off system, I have a T between the pump and the bulkhead of the lower reservoir. This T leads to a third 30 gallon trash can. Both lower reservoirs have ball valves so that either reservoir can be isolated from the other and water can be pumped from either. What is the point? I leave both ball valves open and the RO/DI will fill up both. Then I isolate the third reservoir and I can pump water from the bottom of the can to the top in a loop. Throw in salt and in 1-2 hours I have 25 gallons of salt water that can be used for a water change.
Alternatively, I can setup the same circulation loop with the 1st and second reservoirs and get about 50 gallons of fresh salt water.
If anyone would like to see some pics, then I will post them.
I you a very similar setup to the one described initially in the thread, but with one major difference. I use the solenoid/ float switch to fill a 30 gallon trash can. I have the solenoid on the inlet side of the RO/DI system and fill the trash can through the kent marine float vavle.
The trash can has a bulkhead on the bottom (the can is raised off the floor with 2x4s. I have a pump that pumps water up to a second trash can that is directly above the RO/DI filled can. I pump water from the lower can to the upper can 2-3 times per week. The water in the upper reservoir is then gravity fed to the sump via a float switch. I have a stand pipe in the upper reservoir that is at about the 20-25 gallon level. This way if I forget to turn off the pump, the water will flow back down to the bottom reservoir (my previous system did not have this and I got a couple of floods). This this system I have isolated the city water pressure from the tank. In addition, since I only fill up the lower reservoir a couple of times per week, the solenoid is open for long periods of time and I don't have to deal with the constant on/off of the RO/DI system.
In addition to the water top off system, I have a T between the pump and the bulkhead of the lower reservoir. This T leads to a third 30 gallon trash can. Both lower reservoirs have ball valves so that either reservoir can be isolated from the other and water can be pumped from either. What is the point? I leave both ball valves open and the RO/DI will fill up both. Then I isolate the third reservoir and I can pump water from the bottom of the can to the top in a loop. Throw in salt and in 1-2 hours I have 25 gallons of salt water that can be used for a water change.
Alternatively, I can setup the same circulation loop with the 1st and second reservoirs and get about 50 gallons of fresh salt water.
If anyone would like to see some pics, then I will post them.
Zephrant
Premium Member
Great ideas all!
Matt- That sounds good. I keep avoiding #40 because I hear it stinks bad, and has a 1 year or shorter shelf life. Making a small L bracket out of acrylic and gluing it in would work well too.
Manderx- Very nice idea. If you get a chance, can you throw up a picture?
King- What you have is very similar, but I did not want to have the extra 15 gallon reservoir, hence the need for the solenoid that can hold back line pressure. I like your setup though, and agree that it is simpler. Keep in mind that KISS is not the end-all be-all though, otherwise we would still be dragging our feet for brakes in the car, instead of anti-lock breaks.
Kevin- I like your setup. I think I have seen pictures before, but if you get a chance, I'd like to see them again. I want to progress to a setup more like yours, but have to build/acquire some large storage tanks. I currently use a 100g stock tank for water-change water, but it takes up a lot of room in my small fish-room.
Thanks all-
Zeph
Matt- That sounds good. I keep avoiding #40 because I hear it stinks bad, and has a 1 year or shorter shelf life. Making a small L bracket out of acrylic and gluing it in would work well too.
Manderx- Very nice idea. If you get a chance, can you throw up a picture?
King- What you have is very similar, but I did not want to have the extra 15 gallon reservoir, hence the need for the solenoid that can hold back line pressure. I like your setup though, and agree that it is simpler. Keep in mind that KISS is not the end-all be-all though, otherwise we would still be dragging our feet for brakes in the car, instead of anti-lock breaks.
Kevin- I like your setup. I think I have seen pictures before, but if you get a chance, I'd like to see them again. I want to progress to a setup more like yours, but have to build/acquire some large storage tanks. I currently use a 100g stock tank for water-change water, but it takes up a lot of room in my small fish-room.
Thanks all-
Zeph
Zeph,
It's true about the Weldon 40 smell, and the shelf life is 1 year past the date on the box. But, aside from that, it's very useful stuff for DIY. It fixes leaks in sumps way better than #16 and really bonds PVC to acrylic well. In fact, my next sump, I'm going to forget about solvent welding the bottom seam altogether, and use #40 for the whole joint.
The more I think about the timer/float switch thing, the more I like it. Its sort of an analogy to time delays on thermostats to keep them from switching on/off constantly.
KingT;
spending way too much time and effort on stuff is what this hobby is all about :>
It's true about the Weldon 40 smell, and the shelf life is 1 year past the date on the box. But, aside from that, it's very useful stuff for DIY. It fixes leaks in sumps way better than #16 and really bonds PVC to acrylic well. In fact, my next sump, I'm going to forget about solvent welding the bottom seam altogether, and use #40 for the whole joint.
The more I think about the timer/float switch thing, the more I like it. Its sort of an analogy to time delays on thermostats to keep them from switching on/off constantly.
KingT;
spending way too much time and effort on stuff is what this hobby is all about :>
Old Yeller Tang
Premium Member
Well, mine is all set up and just waiting for my ro to supply some water. About the solenoid with a brass part. I figure what metals it does leach out would be very minimal and probably no different than those who dose Bi-onic and Kent A & B since there is trace amount of copper in them.
I just finally got this set up in, and it appears to be working. But, when I first connected the solenoid to my R.O./D.I filter (input side) it groaned and let water through whether it was on or off. I disconnected it, tightened the set screw and nylon nut, put it back together, and it seems to be working. But, McMaster Carr (I called them) said that the solenoid might be defective and they're sending me a new one. What a great company!
One question, is it possible that the water supply is presenting more than 150lbs/sq" to the solenoid? I do have good pressure at that faucet, but it's still a faucet connection going to a 1/4" tube with J.G. fittings. I don't see how there could be that much pressure, but maybe there's something I don't understand about water pressure leaving the faucet (about 1") and going through the smaller tube.
One question, is it possible that the water supply is presenting more than 150lbs/sq" to the solenoid? I do have good pressure at that faucet, but it's still a faucet connection going to a 1/4" tube with J.G. fittings. I don't see how there could be that much pressure, but maybe there's something I don't understand about water pressure leaving the faucet (about 1") and going through the smaller tube.
Zephrant
Premium Member
Matt- There does appear to be a "right" and "wrong" way to install the solenoid, and it is not marked. Mine worked fine for months until I took it out to inspect it. When I put it back, I got it in backwards and I had the same problem.
As for the pressure, your hot water tank has a valve on it that will blow open at 70PSI. Since your system is all at the same pressure, you can assume that your RO/DI cannot get even that high. Standard house pressure is between 40 to 60 PSI.
Water pressure is a funny thing, it exerts the same PSI in any size hose when the water is not moving (static, or moving slow). When the water moves fast, the pressure actually drops.
Zeph
As for the pressure, your hot water tank has a valve on it that will blow open at 70PSI. Since your system is all at the same pressure, you can assume that your RO/DI cannot get even that high. Standard house pressure is between 40 to 60 PSI.
Water pressure is a funny thing, it exerts the same PSI in any size hose when the water is not moving (static, or moving slow). When the water moves fast, the pressure actually drops.
Zeph
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