happyface888
New member
kordon Ich Attack hmm I heard some really bad reviews on this thing saying it doesnt work...
Do i have crypt?
- Thread starter rcerulli
- Start date
i stopped it after the first dose when i found my angel laying on his side - and then realized i had been "had".
Its so stupid, this LFS has now lost my business and i will go find a new one. I have spent nearly 2k on the system thus far, im sure i can find a LFS that will be happy to take my money and not sell me voodoo.
happyface888
New member
Yeah some stores are for the money, I think you can get some helpful information to point you towards the right stores, check out this club forum.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=156
http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=156
Yes thats where i found the LFS called "Lots of fish". Its a shame because the guy really knew his stuff. But then sold me crap
I even told him i dont want to do display tank stuff and he swore by it, and said i couldnt do hospital because the tank wasnt cycled. Well a pack of bio-spira and 24 hours with 50% water from my display should cure that problem
wooden_reefer
New member
I have had some success with Coppersafe a few time prior, but it seems rather harsh stuff. A few of my fish developed white patches. I reduced the recommeded strength and was still successful.
Then one day when I used it on one of my angels it turned to its side, listless. Same dose. I concluded that my bottle of Coppersafe was too old; may be the cheleation has become weak. This fish recovered and lived for many years.
I don't want to be judamental about Coppersafe, especially after 25 years. Things may be new and improved. It is just that I found straight copper simply better. One has to have good quantitative sense to prepare and use it. A misplaced decimal will kill all your fish. The stuff is not ketcup on fries, has to be carefully measured.
Then one day when I used it on one of my angels it turned to its side, listless. Same dose. I concluded that my bottle of Coppersafe was too old; may be the cheleation has become weak. This fish recovered and lived for many years.
I don't want to be judamental about Coppersafe, especially after 25 years. Things may be new and improved. It is just that I found straight copper simply better. One has to have good quantitative sense to prepare and use it. A misplaced decimal will kill all your fish. The stuff is not ketcup on fries, has to be carefully measured.
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happyface888
New member
Hmm Bio Spira does work but not as good as the natural way and you have to refugerate that stuff or else it would die. Try asking around from posters who have posted alot and know there stuff about the stores. There must be other fishes stores available, instead of that.
LFS had the stuff in the fridge, was cool when i purchased it, kept the AC in the car on for the drive home (10 minutes), and threw it straight in the fridge. It *should* be ok. I know it doesnt replace a cycled system, but it might let me limp along. I will be doing daily water changes as well
As for the LFS i found, it was 5 minutes from my home so i figured id give it a try. Its just been very hard finding a store who will be knowledgable and do whats best for me, not his pocket.
Latest update:
Setup hospital tank, had everything working, even took my canister filter with established bio balls and porcelain. Nitrites wont go below 1.0ppm, fish are lethargic and panicing, and there is nothing i can do that will drop the nitrites. Even bio-spira initially didnt really help and large water changes havent helped either. So the fish are going back in the display ich and all until the hospital tank recycles. Funny part is, i tested the display and the water params are perfect...
Sigh such a long and tedious battle, really makes me want to give up but i am not ready yet
Setup hospital tank, had everything working, even took my canister filter with established bio balls and porcelain. Nitrites wont go below 1.0ppm, fish are lethargic and panicing, and there is nothing i can do that will drop the nitrites. Even bio-spira initially didnt really help and large water changes havent helped either. So the fish are going back in the display ich and all until the hospital tank recycles. Funny part is, i tested the display and the water params are perfect...
Sigh such a long and tedious battle, really makes me want to give up but i am not ready yet
wooden_reefer
New member
Earlier you said:
"However i did cycle 4 weeks with 2 domino damsels, 45lbs live rock, and 20lbs live sand. I skimmed during the proccess and have a canister filter and not once during the proccess did i have much of any levels but trace ammonia."
Where did you get the "established bio balls and porcelain"? Do you have another tank?
Are you doing hypo in your QT? You may use a part of the cycled live rock, even marginally cycled, in the QT.
If you think you have time, ie the ich situation is not yet critical, you may wait until your QT is cycled. Typically one does not have such luxury until the next wave of ich attack, but perhaps you do. Situations vary.
Sorry, i assumed i guess that the bio balls should have enough bacteria to filter the tank, thats what i meant about established, there is no other tank. I was trying to do hypo in QT but i only got to 1.015 because i had to keep making drastic water changes to keep nitrites down and my RO filter only makes 50GPD.
As for the live rock, i was worried about the crypt nesting on the rock as its recommended to have a bare bottom empty system. I'm curious as to why the combination of the canister filter which has been in my display since day 1, and i thought that, it in conjunction with the sponge filter and the bio spira should be able to do the job.
The fish are doing "ok" they are eating well however the angel is breathing very fast so im working on getting the salinity back up so i can put them back into the display. Im not sure what there is left to do, i am at wits end and have no one to really talk to about it because i dont trust a single LFS i have worked with so far, because all they do is try to sell me kick-ich and whatnot.
Sigh...
Thanks
As for the live rock, i was worried about the crypt nesting on the rock as its recommended to have a bare bottom empty system. I'm curious as to why the combination of the canister filter which has been in my display since day 1, and i thought that, it in conjunction with the sponge filter and the bio spira should be able to do the job.
The fish are doing "ok" they are eating well however the angel is breathing very fast so im working on getting the salinity back up so i can put them back into the display. Im not sure what there is left to do, i am at wits end and have no one to really talk to about it because i dont trust a single LFS i have worked with so far, because all they do is try to sell me kick-ich and whatnot.
Sigh...
Thanks
wooden_reefer
New member
Ich will die out if all offspring cannot find a host. This is a key concept.
If you are not going to use Cu, but hypo instead, then there is not even the theory of copper carbonate depositing on the live rock to worry about.
PS.
Why did you "skim" (with a protein skimmer if I read correctly)while cycling? Do you not know the purpose of cycling?
An angel that is breathing heavy is in very bad shape.
I skimmed during cycling because of this: http://www.reefcentral.com/FAQ/general/index.php#skimduringcycling
wooden_reefer
New member
Is your angel covered with white spots? If not, it may be suffering from ammonia more acutely than from ich.
If you think it is more the ammonia than the ich that is causing the immediate problem, you should at once use a product called Amquel made by Kordon. This stuff does remove ammonia and should work in conjunction with hypo. Do not delay as your fish can die in any moment. Your LFS should sell Amquel.
I have doubt if Amquel won't interfere with CU, as many conditioners do remove heavy metals.
If you think it is more the ammonia than the ich that is causing the immediate problem, you should at once use a product called Amquel made by Kordon. This stuff does remove ammonia and should work in conjunction with hypo. Do not delay as your fish can die in any moment. Your LFS should sell Amquel.
I have doubt if Amquel won't interfere with CU, as many conditioners do remove heavy metals.
Hey Wooden,
Nitrite and ammonia were at .25 after a 40% water changed about 2 hours before the reading was taken. I went out and bought amquel as dosed as you recommended. I spoke with the LFS and they recommend taking out the clown and angel and putting them back in the display and leave the damsels in the hospital tank to cycle. So i guess this is my approach at the moment.
Thanks for the help!
Nitrite and ammonia were at .25 after a 40% water changed about 2 hours before the reading was taken. I went out and bought amquel as dosed as you recommended. I spoke with the LFS and they recommend taking out the clown and angel and putting them back in the display and leave the damsels in the hospital tank to cycle. So i guess this is my approach at the moment.
Thanks for the help!
wooden_reefer
New member
First, you have two problems from two different errors.
You have both ich and ammonia; the former from lack of committment to quarantine and the latter from marginal cycling thus limited nitrification capacity. Granted, if you did not have ich, the marginal nitrification capacity might have been just enough.
Amquel does work in turning ammonia into a much less toxic (or non-toxic) solid. I heard that the stuff has some side effect in droping the redox potential so it should not be used routinely, but for a QT or fish only tank it is OK. The benefit outweighs any problem at this stage.
The idea of putting all your fish back to the show tank might be a good one, but may also be a bad one. It depends on whether the next wave of ich attack would be imminent or not. If only a few white spots are present on the fish, one would be correct to judge that the next wave will not happen for a couple of weeks.
If there are already numerous white spots of the fish, then I suggest that it is too late to return the fish to the show tank, which likely is now laden with the infectious ich organisms.
Overall, I tend to not recommend that you return the fish to the show tank. Basically and ultimately, you want to make sure that the show tank is fishless for long enough, about 5-7 weeks depending on the temperature. Placing sick fish back to the show tank does not achieve this. Basically, one might as well move forward toward a goal.
I would place ALL the fish in freshly prepare water in QT. Slowly start hypo with Amquel. Call Kordon and ask if Amquel would render copper inactive. It doesn't hurt to try 0.15-0.2 ppm Cu at the same time when you start lowering the salinity, if you have doubt if hypo would work soon enough. Are the fish covered with white spots already? If there are only a few white spots, hypo alone likely would be in time.
At the same time, in a different container such as just a rectangular plastic container just large eough to hold 1/3 of your live rock, cycle again the 1/3 part of live rock. Since there is certainly enough bacteria as seed, you need only place source of ammonia. You just need areation and circulation powerhead. At the rate of one small shrimp for 25 gals of water, blend the shrimp into milk and pour into the container. You might want to place the container in the garage as the odor can be unpleasant. At the end of the cycle, you might want to dump all the water and just keep the moist live rock. This cycling might take only two weeks, as the live rock was already marginally cycled to start with. You then place this re-cycled live rock in your QT; Amquel may no longer be needed by then.
You have both ich and ammonia; the former from lack of committment to quarantine and the latter from marginal cycling thus limited nitrification capacity. Granted, if you did not have ich, the marginal nitrification capacity might have been just enough.
Amquel does work in turning ammonia into a much less toxic (or non-toxic) solid. I heard that the stuff has some side effect in droping the redox potential so it should not be used routinely, but for a QT or fish only tank it is OK. The benefit outweighs any problem at this stage.
The idea of putting all your fish back to the show tank might be a good one, but may also be a bad one. It depends on whether the next wave of ich attack would be imminent or not. If only a few white spots are present on the fish, one would be correct to judge that the next wave will not happen for a couple of weeks.
If there are already numerous white spots of the fish, then I suggest that it is too late to return the fish to the show tank, which likely is now laden with the infectious ich organisms.
Overall, I tend to not recommend that you return the fish to the show tank. Basically and ultimately, you want to make sure that the show tank is fishless for long enough, about 5-7 weeks depending on the temperature. Placing sick fish back to the show tank does not achieve this. Basically, one might as well move forward toward a goal.
I would place ALL the fish in freshly prepare water in QT. Slowly start hypo with Amquel. Call Kordon and ask if Amquel would render copper inactive. It doesn't hurt to try 0.15-0.2 ppm Cu at the same time when you start lowering the salinity, if you have doubt if hypo would work soon enough. Are the fish covered with white spots already? If there are only a few white spots, hypo alone likely would be in time.
At the same time, in a different container such as just a rectangular plastic container just large eough to hold 1/3 of your live rock, cycle again the 1/3 part of live rock. Since there is certainly enough bacteria as seed, you need only place source of ammonia. You just need areation and circulation powerhead. At the rate of one small shrimp for 25 gals of water, blend the shrimp into milk and pour into the container. You might want to place the container in the garage as the odor can be unpleasant. At the end of the cycle, you might want to dump all the water and just keep the moist live rock. This cycling might take only two weeks, as the live rock was already marginally cycled to start with. You then place this re-cycled live rock in your QT; Amquel may no longer be needed by then.
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I just put my hood light on the hospital tank and i cant see any visible white dots. Angel is still gilling rapidly but is active and swimming around. Here is a close up pic of the angel and ive also included a video so you can see the gilling situation.
Thanks!
pic:
Video:
http://robbiered.homelinux.org/uploader/files/1/MVI_0601.AVI
Thanks!
pic:
Video:
http://robbiered.homelinux.org/uploader/files/1/MVI_0601.AVI
Also,
For the cycling part i have a half assed established bio ball canister (aparently) going with carbon and whatnot, and also that sponge filter. Anyway i can utilize them in a better way them i am now to deal with the situation? Also i live in an apartment so the whole stinky rubbermaid thing might not be too appealing to my better half
For the cycling part i have a half assed established bio ball canister (aparently) going with carbon and whatnot, and also that sponge filter. Anyway i can utilize them in a better way them i am now to deal with the situation? Also i live in an apartment so the whole stinky rubbermaid thing might not be too appealing to my better half
wooden_reefer
New member
I don't believe ich infestation is heavy.
I believe it is ammonia poisoning, since your nitrite is high.
Why did you use uncycled bioballs and not the cycled live rock in the QT?
Amquel should eliminate ammonia, hope the damage was not permanent.
I believe it is ammonia poisoning, since your nitrite is high.
Why did you use uncycled bioballs and not the cycled live rock in the QT?
Amquel should eliminate ammonia, hope the damage was not permanent.
Well actually i had the canister since day 1 of the display being up. So i thought they were cycled. Tank had 46lbs live rock, coralife skimmer, and marineland c-220 since day 1. I had assumed that the bio balls in the canister were just as established as the rock, but that doesnt seem the case.
As for not adding live rock to the QT, the reason i didnt is from what ive read on reefcentral and wetwebmedia is, the reason you use a barebottom tank for hospital/qt is that a) nothing to absorb copper should you choose to use it. B) Crypt reproduces in substrate, so considering live rock could be considered that, wouldnt crypt reproduce on live rock as well? So i gathered that breaking the life cycle of crypt also includes stopping them from reproducing. I could be completely wrong.
I do hope the angel damage is not permanent because that would pretty much break my spirits. I do appreciate all the help and advice you have given thus far, and i hope other people as well can benefit from it.
-Rob
wooden_reefer
New member
It is true that given enough time any substrate suitable for nitrification bacteria has the chance to be colonised. In your case there has not been enough time for the bioballs in the canister filter to mature, however.
That copper is deposited as copper carbonate on calcerous materials (like live rock) can be considered in two ways. First, the deposited copper can be replenished. This is what I generally do. I have found that rollercoaster dose is also effective. Second, whether the deposited copper on the live rock will interfere with invertebrate growth on it and if the copper would later "leach out" much at once. I don't have answer for the second question. but I only doubt if it could be a problem.
If you use hypo then there is no question with copper.
The idea that the ich organisms are trapped in filter is incorrect.
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