Documented feeding of cleaner shrimp larvae.

[The Cardinal]

Great inputs Spawner and FuEL!

Is there any site/book with illustrations on the different zoea(s) for this species?


Andy:

What is the presumed settlement cue for the peppermint shrimp?

What would you say the ideal temperature would be for optimum larval development?

How do the larvae "increase their volume (biomass) in a huge way in relation to their total length in later stages"? I would assume that food density in these stages would not be difficult to simulate in an artificial setup, but still the increase in mass is absent. Do you think they switch foodsource in late zoea in order to obtain enough energy for this increase in the wild?

Really appreciate this discussion.

 

[The Cardinal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6277904#post6277904 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnowell
On the Purple Up thing, I don't think he was inferring that the babies needed coraline algae to graze on, more like something in the mixture of Purple Up acted as a settlement trigger.
Jason

Yes I understood what he meant, I was just brainstorming and thought it might be a chance that it was connected to coralline in some way I will try to get hold of the mixture as well.

 

[FuEl]

Thanks spawner for sharing such scarce information.

I have read up some in one published journal (Redescription of larval stages of L. seticaudata; Journal of Plankton research) and it does indicate that the last zoeal stage of L. amboinensis exceeds 2 cm. However the question mark placed next to that value gave me doubts on the credibility of such a value. I had some larvae hitting slightly above 1 cm in upwelling systems by days 45-50. They did survive all the way to 80-100 days however I did not notice any further visible increase in size (at least in terms of total length). Quality of food provided did'nt appear to be a problem to me, they had enriched adult Artemia in the culture vessel at all times and even foods like crab eggs and crushed amphipods.

Judging zoeal stages beyond Zoea VII is a problem for me, as literature is scarce on this classification and many authors often avoid it due to complex pleopod development. I will check up on the appendix interna issue.

Thanks for the phylogenetic information! The size difference of larvae does make alot of sense now.

 

[spawner]

You'll find plenty of more published information on Lysmata larval devleopment and the such shortly.

I am in the process of writing up a large series of papers for RK on the genus. I have been waiting for a few publications to be accpted by journals before writing up hobby level reports.

 

[Luis A M]

Welcome to shrimpers Peter and FuEl to this forum! :wavehand
You both have sure some useful experiences to share!
FuEl,are you from Singapore and moved to Oz?
Andy,great you joined us here too!
Wow,this thread is warming up!

Some comments on issues discussed here:

Well kept L.amb.at 27Ã"šÃ‚º molt every 3 days.Mine reach Z7 at 18 days.It means that up to this stage they didnÃ"šÃ‚´t "mark time",every molt brought a new stage.

The "must have"reference for those interested in L.amb.larval development is Mark Wunsch thesis paper of 1996.It has detailed anatomical drawings of Z1 to Z7 and of more advanced zoea he couldnÃ"šÃ‚´t stage for lack of enough material.

Staging is clear and easy up to Z7.After that changes are gradual and stages are more difficult to define.Pleopods grow and become covered with setae and the flagellum of A2 (antenna)grows until it matches those of A1.

That 42 days time of Waikiki could perhaps be wrong.K.Brittain who actually worked with them told me that S.Kraul could be confused there,larval length was longer than that.

Regarding nutrition,I have tried different things and combinations and have yet to find something better than bbs.It is true and easy to see though,that young zoea filter feed on phytoplankton.

 

[FuEl]

Keep up the good work spawner! Would love to see more literature available regarding L. amboinensis. Current information is so limited.

Yes Luis, I'm residing in Singapore but just doing some postgrad studies in Oz. I also noticed that up to Z7 each larval stage lasted between 2.5-3 days (at 27-28 degrees celcius). Mark-time molting occurs after this period. I can't really identify any stages beyond Z8 as I do not have access to electromicroscopy as yet..only a basic lab microscope.

Phytoplankton like T.chuii seems to be an important part of the diet from Z1 to Z2. Beyond that the nutritional role might not be that great. One food item I find the larvae take with relish are crab eggs plucked fresh from the gravid crab.

 

[The Cardinal]

Well thanks for all the advise, unfortunately my last shrimp died after 54 days. I hope I will do better next time with more knowledge in my back.

Please keep posting your successes and failures when trying to breed this tricky customer. And donÃ"šÃ‚´t give up !

 

[m.rogers]

There is a lfs here in MD. and the owner was telling me that he has breed cleaner shrimp and sold they when he first told me this i thought he was talking $hit (i thought that they had never been breed, i still have alot to learn) but after reading all the stuff that you have all done my thoughts have changed. His email is seasaveemail@msn.com and his site is seasave.net

mike

 

[spawner]

Well he is not selling tank raised cleaners for 14 bucks.

 

[Kathy55g]

I'll bet he raised peppermints and not cleaners....

 

[chlupl]

just because he has raised and sold doesn't mean he still does, can do on a regular basis, or even can do at all. i would have no idea if he is talking $hit or not, but he may have done it and either decided it was too much of a PITA (he he... I just noticed that PITA is a pain in the a$$, lol), or he couldn't reproduce his efforts.

FWIW,
Steven

 

[malachai]

I am currently trying to raise our coral banded shrimp lavae stenopus hispidus (110 days and counting). Keep postin it will help us all. Good Luck

 

[Luis A M]

Malachai,IÃ"šÃ‚´m impressed
My record with them is only 40 days
Could you tell us more?Good luck with them!

 

[oama]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6314095#post6314095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kmleah
I'll bet he raised peppermints and not cleaners....

But, Peppermint's are Cleaners. They use to give me the best manicures, I had the cleanest nails in the lab!

 

[Luis A M]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6346575#post6346575 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by oama
But, Peppermint's are Cleaners. They use to give me the best manicures, I had the cleanest nails in the lab!

Well,yes,somehow
Peppers are facultative cleaners,some like L.californica do clean morays and big fishes in caves,others clean fish only occasionally,while others never dthers are tube sponge dwellers like some neon gobies.
For practical purposes the term "cleaner"should be reserved for the obligate cleaners,L.ambinensis,L.debelius and their sibling species.They make their life in their cleaning stations which they advertice with their white antennae.Cleaners are closely related ( I disagree with Andy in this ) as evidenced by their long larval time and their developing of paddles in three pairs of pereiopods (legs) 3Ã"šÃ‚º,4Ã"šÃ‚º and 5Ã"šÃ‚º.All other Lysmata,the peppermints,have shorter larval time and paddles only in the 5th pair.

 

[oama]

Luis, Old Friend,
Not sure if you will get the referance, but you sound like "Mr. Wizard".
Or at least the mailman from Cheers.
My post was in part a jest.
But....You have to call a Spade a Spade.
Peppermints DO clean. If one wants to clarify definitions, then I would use the term "Obligate Cleaners" for other species such as the Scarlets. Stating that Peppermints are "not really cleaners" is not true. I have no problem with a three tiered profile: non-cleaners, cleaners and obligate cleaners.

But then again, are the Obligates truly Obligate? So they would die off if they had no fish to clean? Hmmm.

Granted, the instars have a unique difference from other species. Maybe that should be the criteria for differentiating the groups.

 

[Luis A M]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6347971#post6347971 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by oama
Luis, Old Friend,
Not sure if you will get the referance, but you sound like "Mr. Wizard".
Or at least the mailman from Cheers.

I donÃ"šÃ‚´t get the reference cause I donÃ"šÃ‚´t have a cue about who Mr.Wizard,Cheers (or the mailman)are.See where I live:lol:
Anyway,is it good or bad?
As far as "cleaners and peppermints"I find they are two natural groups for the reasons exposed.
But I think it was Andy who began to call "peppermints"to all Lysmata other than the "cleaners".So he could jump in and defend his creature

 

[FuEl]

Well done malachai! Your banded coral shrimp larvae should be settling soon. I've tried Stenopus cyanoscelis larvae to 30 days + but they grew slowly and all died eventually. Possibly because I fed them solely Artemia nauplii. If I'm not wrong Stenopus larvae need rotifers for faster initial development?

 

[spawner]

Luis,

Hope you are enjoying the warm weather, I am in PA for Christmas. Burr.....

Yes Doug, Bill as SMS FP station has a nice touch tank with some peppermints in there just for that, cleaning people's fingers. I finally saw my first L. wurdemanni on a moray eel last summer. The moray wasn't too happy with me when I took the shrimp off his mouth.

Luis, also forgets that I am setting on some data here when I tell people that cleaners are closer related to the old "Hippolysmata" than the "Lysmata" But they are. They are an off branch of the Hippolysmata peppermints. I hope to be able to share this soon, if Curt (Doug did I tell you he got married?) would get off his rump and finish the genetics. I am shipping him a fresh set of tissue out next week for a final fun and then its out to the reviewers. Also the larval development is very different between the Lysmata and Hippolysmata groups.

Luis is more or less correct saying that their are two groups, his would be an ecological grouping, cleaners: pair bonded low density fish experts, peppermints, group living, eat anything more or less. My placement is based on phylogentics. I have a peppermint that sits in the ecological group of the cleaners, so its a bit of a mess. It's more of an ecologically forced low density species an a derived species.

 

[The Cardinal]

I thought it was time to bring this thread back to the surface after more than eight months. Has anyone more information on breeding Cleaner shrimps at this point?

Spawner: how is your research going?

Thanks

Peter