does Ozone need to be run over carbon?

reefpimp#1

New member
I am thinking of running a 25mg Sanders ozone unit through my skimmer. Someone told me i need to run the return water over carbon.
Wouldn't this remove the ozone defeating the purpose or after the ozone is added and treats the water does it need to be removed before returning water to tank?
 
The ozone is meant to treat the water in the reactor(skimmer) and no where else. Carbon is suggested to treat the air and exiting water so direct contact with the ozone doesnt harm you or the fish. With that said.. I run a 250mg ozonator and do not use carbon on either. I smell a hint of ozone in the air, but no more than an ionic breeze air sanitizer.

If that is true that you are going to use the 25mg on your 220., I dont think it will make a dent in the water quality. I run mine full blast with no air dryer (which is less efficent).
 
I would say a 25 will not do much on any tank larger than about 65G. I had a 100 unit on my 130G and needed to upgrade to a 200 mg/hr unit.

And yes carbon is very, very important both for the water output and also anywhere air can escape from your skimmer. Also make sure your skimmer is ozone safe :)
 
so do you think running a 25mg on a 150 is pointless?
It was free I thought i'd try it if you dont think it will do anything than i'll just pack it away. if it will do a little i guess thats better than nothing.
And i'm confused. you said running carbon is very important but you dont run carbon?
 
I run the output from my ozone reactor through carbon and my reactor has a carbon chamber ontop of it that any air leaving the unit must pass through. I had tried it without carbon once and the smell was quite strong. I have small animals in my house and will not take the risk of running it without the carbon. Its not healthy long term. I have had very bad headaches and dizziness from my ozone unit once when it was leaking...not a fun experience.

As for fish being ok in ozone, that is not true. In small amounts, it will not show any harmful effects (just like with people) but ozone breaks down organic matter and that goes for the fish too. Granted it would take a long time, why not just use carbon??? Carbon can also help you if you do overdose ozone. It will absorb it before it can effect your fish and corals.

I would go ahead and use the 25 mg/hr unit anyways if you have it and don't mind setting it up. I mean its better than nothing. If anything, it will clear your water up a bit.
 
I am running it now through my css220 ant the return water is running over a bag of carbon. I'm getting a new skimmer tonight hopefully if i can get someone to actually answer the impossible skimmer question what to get for $250-$300. Looking at the ASM G-3 and the Octopus 2000 unless i get a better suggesation. But i guess thats another thread all together.
 
Sorry I can't help too much with the skimmer but try to make sure it ozone safe of course. Glad to hear your using the carbon since it really is not a big deal to set up at all. Its just something you need to change every two weeks to a month. Worth it IMO. Im sure you will notice less algae on the glass and clearer water within a few weeks of using ozone.
 
I strongly recommend using carbon on both the air and the water. I discuss the toxicity of ozone to you and your family as wellas the tank here:

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 1: Chemistry and Biochemistry
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/rhf/index.php

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 2: Equipment and Safety
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/rhf/index.php

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 3: Changes in a Reef Aquarium upon Initiating Ozone
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-05/rhf/index.php


from the first one:

Toxicity of Ozone Produced Oxidants (OPOs)



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Two sorts of toxicity studies of ozone produced oxidants (OPOs, such as bromate, hypobromous acid, etc.) are relevant to reef aquarists. The first involves the testing of seawater that has been exposed to ozone, and the second involves the testing of specific compounds dissolved in seawater that are known to form when using ozone. Most of the OPOs are unstable, and so have few or no specific toxicity studies. Bromate (BrO3-) is the notable exception, and its toxicity is examined in the next section.

Much of the study of OPOs stems from applications slightly different from aquaria, and such studies must be viewed in that light. Often they relate to aquaculture facilities, where ozone is used at high doses to sterilize the water. Other studies are done on the disinfection of wastewater using ozone, another high dose application. Bear in mind that OPOs in reef aquarium applications will be at a maximum of about 0.3 ppm in typical reaction chambers, and will be lower (hopefully, much lower) once the water passes over activated carbon (assuming it does) and finally enters the aquarium. The concentration of OPO is always given in terms of the weight of ozone that produces that amount of oxidant.

In terms of the toxicity of ozonated seawater itself, one group concluded that fish were relatively insensitive to OPOs:

"Ozonation of estuarine or marine waters can produce significant amount of bromate…Toxicity studies showed that the concentrations of bromate which theoretically could be formed in an ozonated discharge were not toxic to the early life stages of striped bass (Morone saxatilis) and juvenile spot (Leiostomus xanthurus)."50

Larvae are, in general, more sensitive to OPOs than are eggs,51 adults or juveniles.52 Japanese flounder eggs were found to be impacted by OPOs to the extent that 50% did not hatch after one minute of exposure to 2.2 ppm OPO. Larvae aged 3-15 days were killed to the extent of 50% in 24 hours at 0.02-0.05 ppm OPO. Larvae aged 44 days were killed to the extent of 50% in 24 hours at 0.15 ppm OPO. In this case, the larvae were shown to have damage to their branchial tissues.53

The eggs and larvae of Japanese whiting (Silago japonica) also have been tested for toxicity by OPOs. In this case, half of the eggs and larvae died in about 24 hours when exposed to 0.18 and 0.23 ppm OPOs, respectively.54

Certain microalgae are also relatively insensitive to OPOs (perhaps to the disappointment of many aquarists). The growth of the microalgae Tetraselmis chuii was found to be unaffected at levels up to 0.7 ppm.55 At 1 ppm, growth was impacted negatively.

Toxicity tests of OPOs on shrimp show them to be less sensitive than fish. Penaeus chinensis and Paralichthys olivaceus were found to live up to 48 hours at OPO concentrations of more than 1 ppm, while Bastard halibut (fish) in the same study lived only three hours at 1 ppm and 48 hours at 0.13 ppm.56

As for other organisms, the damage to the American oyster (Crassostrea virginica) by OPOs varied with their age. Even for adults, fecal matter accumulation was reduced at OPO levels as low as 0.05 ppm.57

The effect of OPOs on rotifers (Brachionus plicatilis) has also been determined.58 No effect on survival was seen at less than 0.22 ppm OPO, but effects became significant above that level. The authors point out that bacteria and other pathogens can be killed at that level, so rotifer cultures can be used with that amount of continuous ozone to reduce bacterial contamination.

Are these levels of OPO toxicity important to reef aquarists? That is difficult to answer without knowing the levels that are attained in reef aquaria. In a typical ozone application in reef aquaria that might produce 0.1-0.3 ppm OPO in a reaction chamber, the levels are quite significant compared to potential toxicity to fish larvae and other organisms at as little as 0.02-0.05 ppm. After passing the reactor's effluent over activated carbon, the OPO concentrations should be much lower, but exactly how low is unclear and will vary considerably in different setups.

Toxicity of Bromate



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The toxicity of ozone and bromate at "natural" levels in the ocean has been assessed and usually found to be minimal.59 Few studies have examined the toxicity of excess bromate itself to marine organisms.60 One review article concluded:

"Bromate toxicity tests on marine animals indicate the levels of bromate produced by chlorination or ozonation of power plant cooling waters are not acutely toxic. The LC50 ranged from 30 ppm bromate for Pacific oyster, Crassostrea gigas, larva to several hundred ppm for fish, shrimp and clams."9

One individual study showed that Pacific oysters (Crassostrea gigas) had abnormal larval development at bromate levels of 30-300 ppm.61,62 Fertilized eggs of the oyster Crassostrea virginica were killed at 1 ppm.63 The clams Protothaca staminea (littleneck) and Macoma inquinata (bent-nosed) were killed by 880 ppm.64 The marine dinoflagellate Glenodinium halli showed changes in population growth at 16 ppm.65 The marine microalgae Isochrysis galbana showed changes in population growth at 8 ppm.65 The marine diatom (Skeletonema costatum) showed changes in population growth at 0.125 to 16 ppm.65 The marine diatom Thalassiosira pseudonana showed changes in population growth at 16 ppm.65 The salmon Oncorhynchus keta was killed at 500 ppm and the perch Cymatogaster aggregata at 880 ppm.64 Two shrimp (Pandalus danae and Neomysis awatschensis) were killed at 880 and 176 ppm, respectively.64

Are these levels of toxicity important to reef aquarists? That is difficult to answer without knowing the levels that are attained in typical reef aquaria. The one study in the literature of bromate in a seawater aquarium, described above, showed the accumulation of up to 0.6 ppm bromate, although that was an application in which ozone was used for disinfection, so it was used at high doses. That level is high enough, however, to cause toxicity to certain organisms, but not others. In a typical reef aquarium ozone application, the bromate in the aquarium water is likely to be much lower. How much lower will likely depend on the way it is used, especially the dose and whether it is passed over activated carbon before entering the aquarium. It may also depend on the other husbandry practices used in the aquarium, because some procedures (such as denitrification) may reduce bromate levels. In any case, the potential toxicity data for bromate support the practice of using activated carbon after ozone exposure.
 
And from the second one:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/rhf/index.php#14

Ozone's Safety to Humans: Background



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Ozone in the air can be a significant health hazard to humans. A recent EPA study (to be published in April of 2006 in Environmental Health Perspectives) shows that ozone can cause premature death at prolonged exposure levels as low as 0.08 ppm. That level is considerably lower than had been previously believed. Older studies had suggested that a level of 0.2 ppm was not a significant health risk. It is beyond the scope of the article to detail ozone's various health effects, but it should be apparent that if ozone can be used to oxidize and break down organic materials, then ozone exposure to humans, which are made up of organic tissue, is undesirable.

Since most aquarists do not have ozone detection meters (see below), how should they determine if they are potentially being exposed to undesirably high levels? Aside from not using ozone, which might be a reasonable choice for many aquarists for many reasons, including health, I would recommend the sniff test. It appears that most people can detect ozone in the air by smell at levels somewhat below 0.08 ppm. So, if you can smell ozone, it may or may not be at dangerous levels. It is quite possible, however, to use ozone in a manner where it cannot be smelled, assuming that the equipment and procedures are adequate, including passing the post-reactor air over a suitable amount of GAC (discussed in the next section). My advice, then, is that if you choose to use ozone, you do so in a way in which you cannot detect its odor. Is that a guarantee that you will suffer no harmful effects? No. Some people have a much poorer sense of smell than others. And future studies may show harmful effects even at levels below the threshold of detection by the human nose. But if I were using ozone, and I could smell it, I would take affirmative action to reduce the escape of the ozone gas.

For those who are interested, many brands of ozone meters are suitable for determining if undesirable levels of ozone are in the air. They are, unfortunately, fairly expensive. The EW-86316-20 Ozone Meter from Cole Parmer, for example, sells for $350 and shows levels from 0.02-0.14 ppm. Some test kits also involve exposing a sensitized card to the air. These are not expensive, and for aquarists concerned about ozone safety, they may be a good way to ascertain whether a particular setup poses any risk. Kits can be obtained from many outlets, including:

http://www.iaacm.org/freeozonetest.html
http://www.alerg.com/page/A/PROD/TK/AVC2000
http://www.indoorairtest.com/ozone.asp

For reference purposes, the summary of ozone health effects that was presented in the first article in this series is reproduced below for convenience.

Ozone's Effects in the Lower Atmosphere:


0.003 to 0.010 ppm
Lowest levels detectable by the average person (by odor).
0.08 ppm
Latest EPA study (to publish in April 2006) reports significantly increased risk of premature death in humans. Each 0.01 ppm increase results in a 0.3 percent increase in early mortality.
0.001 to 0.125 ppm
Ozone concentration in natural air.
0.1 ppm
The typical maximum allowable continuous ozone concentration in industrial work areas and public and private spaces.
0.15 to 0.51 ppm
The typical peak concentration in American cities.
0.2 ppm
Prolonged exposure of humans under typical work conditions produced no apparent effects.
0.3 ppm
The threshold level for nasal and throat irritation. Some species of plant life show damage.
0.5 ppm
The level at which Los Angeles, California declares its Smog Alert No. 1; can cause nausea and headaches.
1 to 2 ppm
The level at which Los Angeles, California declares its Smog Alerts Nos. 2 (1.00 ppm) and 3 (1.50 ppm). Symptoms: headache, pain in the chest and dryness of the respiratory tract.
1.4 to 5.6 ppm
Causes severe damage to plants.
5 to 25 ppm
Lethal to animals in several hours.
25+ ppm
Likely lethal to humans in one hour.
 
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