Dosing Nitrate to reduce Phosphate

[ReefKeeper64]

you may want to slow down on your nitrate addition. if you dose too much nitrate at a single time you can get a bacteria bloom since you have surplus of carbon with the bio-pellets.
please share the details of your experiment over the next few weeks.

I will second being careful when adding the nitrate, as a bloom of bacteria that is too robust can be bad as well. Im very interested to see what happens in your system - since you are using the biopellets you should have plenty of carbon for the bacteria growth.
Please keep us in the loop as to what you find

2hands and mhucasey, Thanks for the advice on slowing things down. I heeded your warnings and haven't added any more nitrate for two days now. Fortunately I didn't experience a bacterial bloom yet and nitrate readings have dropped back down to 10 as of this morning. The skimmer is beginning to pull out more skimate now but it isn't going crazy. I'm going to try to keep the nitrates around 5-10ppm and will lower them to 2.5ppm if I get cyano issues or something along those lines. SPS are open and Red Goni seems happy.

With PO4 at over 0.20ppm as of Saturday evening, I wasn't comfortable with leaving them at that level. As a result, I replaced the GFO in my reactor. The new GFO brought the PO4 back down to where I usually keep it (0.03 - 0.08). As of this morning PO4 is at .06. Hopefully PO4 will stay in check now but Its too early to tell. With any luck my corals will color up more from the Nitrate and I won't be needing to buy more GFO in the future either!

Thats again for your help and interest. I'll keep ya'll posted on how things are progressing.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

Here's the latest on the little nitrate experimento.

Two weeks ago my PO4 was at 0.24ppm and bio-pellet reactor had nitrates at a solid 0ppm. I started dosing the calcium nitrate and figured out how to keep it at around 5-10ppm. I actually ran out of phosphate reagent a couple of days into the experiment so I didn't worry about testing it for a couple of weeks to give it time to bake. Today I finally had a chance to get over to FAOIS to buy some reagent, which I did. I did a PO4 test this evening and my PO4 readings are now down to 0.01ppm - success!

I just kept things simple on the nitrate dosage. I added around 7-9 dry nitrate granules to my sump each time the nitrate level dropped down to 5ppm or less. With 70 gallons of water this raised my nitrates back up to around 10ppm each time. I added a new dose about once every 4-5 days, that is all. To make things really simple, I used a mini spoon that held about that amount.

During the two weeks, I also ordered a bottle of Seachem Flourish liquid Nitrogen (Nitrate) and I think I will switch to that product because my refugium has alot of macro algaes and those macros deplete the water of potasium so I get the added benefit of the potasium replenishment that way. I was reading up on Red Sea Energy A/B also contains potasium and claims the potasium is helpful for coloring up SPS corals so that was another reason I thought I'd give it a go. I checked and found that there are potasium test kits available too.

Pros: Easy to do and no more GFO to deal with. Plus my faded monti cap is getting better coloring with some nitrate in the tank now! The other corals seem to be happy with the extra food as well.

Cons: I did get a little micro algae in the tank when the nitrates were up in the 20s but it seems to have subsided. Well, except for this one trocus snail who's shell has algae growing on it now. I think his shell needs a trim!

I learned alot in this experiment. Good times!

 

[uglyfish]

success

I ran a similar experiment - with similar results. In the longer term, I found this method was like walking a tightrope. Hard to keep the corals from starving. The biopellets were relentless. If I stopped the no3 dosing, po4 rose, so I had to keep feeding no3 - and they're both always racing back to zero. And when I overfed because my corals were starving, I was greeted with a cyano outbreak... ahhh!

I've abandoned this method and returned to the conventional ways of nutrient control. The big problem (I think) was not the nitrate dosing, but the choice of carbon dosing - the biopellets don't stop or slow down. I think a liquid carbon source and nitrate source may be more viable in the longer term - because you can back off the dosage as required.

Cool experiment and nice documentation. Looking forward to updates.

 

[mhucasey]

I'm glad to hear about the success you have had so far. I think the idea of keeping an eye on the potassium levels is a good one, I regularly dose potassium as it can get depleted over time by the corals and bacteria. The best test kit is the Salifert one, a bit harder to find but much easier to use. You need a phd to do the Red Sea kit and the results are nowhere near conclusive.

I used the Vertex Biopellets about a year ago but ended up getting rid of them and going to vinegar dosing because the corals were starving. I was using less than half the stated amount and tried using a recirculating reactor, but nothing seemed to help. Every time I tested nitrate the value was always undetectable.

It was after switching to vinegar that I started to experiment with Nitrate dosing. I wonder now if the pellets would have worked out if i had kept dosing nitrate. Anyhow, I'm interested in seeing how things progress with your system.

I'm about to upgrade my system significantly and I may opt back in with pellets, as the skimmer I'm upgrading to will handle anything I throw at it...

 

[coralreefdoc]

All beginning to understand the total picture/legitimate results here ...

Its an innovative/efficient/cutting edge ReefKeeping practice amongst the advanced ... And of course, 'those' who heard about it on an online thread, a few weeks back, and are instantaneous experts on the topic.

* I for one dont need any recognition, but out of courtesy/respect, for the pioneers/innovators of this method, refrain from coming in and speaking on things as if theyre youre own new, original ideas/thoughts/advices/practices when theyve already been mentioned/documented long before ... In this very thread even

 

[uwish]

I am going to chime in here from the point of view of phosphates...

I don't think many people know that there is actually two types of phosphates, Soluble reactive Phosphates (SRP) and Organic Phosphates.

When you are measuring the PO4 levels in your tank you are really only measuring the SRP phosphates, which are NOT the phosphates that 98% of algae like to eat. Those are the Phosphates that are dissolved in the water column, the 'bad' phosphates are the Organic Phosphates which are bound to the organics in your tank (ie rocks, sand etc). Those you cannot measure with any simple home test kit.

So just because you have a 0 or very low reading on your phosphate test kit, does not necessarily mean you have 0 phosphates.

That being said, if you are not having an issue with algae now, as long as you don't over feed your tank, do regular water changes you should be fine.

I like running a GFO reactor to reduce my overall PO4 concentration, I think most would agree that the best way of controlling algae is prevention.

 

[uglyfish]

* I for one dont need any recognition, but out of courtesy/respect, for the pioneers/innovators of this method, refrain from coming in and speaking on things as if theyre youre own new, original ideas/thoughts/advices/practices when theyve already been mentioned/documented long before ... In this very thread even

Gallant protector of the faith... people make interesting discoveries on their journeys, and there is an element of excitement when we learn new things (maybe not new to you) - why not encourage learning rather than stomping all over it... no one's taking credit for inventing anything. It's a hobby, relax.

When you are measuring the PO4 levels in your tank you are really only measuring the SRP phosphates, which are NOT the phosphates that 98% of algae like to eat.

They say green algae only consumes SRP.

 

[ReefKeeper64]

I just wanted to say that I'm really appreciative of all the posters who have shared their experiences following the redfield ratio to naturally reduce PO4. Another week has passed so I did another PO4 test of my tank water with the Hanna checker last night and the reading was .02. Still < .03 and this is without relying on GFO so I am content.

With what I have learned from others, I'm now keeping Nitrates lower at between 2-5 to minimize algae concerns. To keep dosing simple I added a capful of seachem liquid nitrate to my top off water (29 gal) and that put the nitrate level of the top off water at around 5. The small daily adds via top off water seeem to be doing a good job of keeping the nitrates detectible and the PO4 low. Since I'm running a bio-pellet reactor it seems to be a good fit for my needs. In the past, if I did get a Nitrate reading the bio pellets would always take the nitrate levels back to undetectible in a day or two. Now things are more steady and balanced.

I appreciate posts by others on this thread who already figured this out as I have benefited from what you have shared and I thank each of you. I hope my own personal experience also helps to pass the knowledge forward in a productive manner. Happy reefing all!

http://eesc.columbia.edu/courses/ees/slides/climate/n_v_phos.html

 

[coralreefdoc]

Uglyfish. Its ironic you state Im stomping all over learning when It was I who presented the solid, directly related information which got this thread going, initially. Have you even read the thread, from the beginning ?

Now, why nincompoops, like yourself, feel the need to trivially spat their inconsequential misinformation/ficticious stories of experience all over these type of advanced threads is beyond me ... Keep it moving, :clown: ... You, your cowardly comments, and your ficticious experience with this method.

Individuals who have a great deal of knowledge/experience/perception in this "hobby" have an uncanny way of identifying when someone is BSing there way about ... This isn't a FAKE IT 'TIL YOU MAKE IT type endeavor. Its also far more than "just a hobby", for most advanced reefkeepers (unlike yourself to understand) so show some respect !

 

[coralreefdoc]

Welcome.

While I haven't been extremely active here, due to passively letting the misinformed/uninformed nonsense play itself out, this thread has reached a pinnacle where the truly valid/legitimate information will present itself, once again. Now that were past the warning/precaution stage, and once I get some free time/notes in order, Ill continue to share my accumulated knowledge/experience in a more fastidious style ...

It's ashame where this thread went to for a while, as its a legitimate, but seldom known, biological (with natural chemical influence) method for the reduction of PO4 in NO3 limited systems. Often times, those aforementioned NO3 limited systems are the direct effect of carbon dosing, where, in direct relation to the Redfield Ratio, tend to reduce said NO3 in a far greater percentage than PO4. Thus, the reefkeeper, especially one not employing any other means of phosphate control, is left with residual/accumulating values of PO4. Which, depending on the severity of a specific systems imbalance, is often elevated significantly enough that it produces secondary conditions i.e. Cyanobacteria, algae, tissue necrosis, calcification inhibition, etc.

*Cyanobacteria, a product of PO4/NO3 imbalances (among other aspects/variables, including flow) and, especially in captive reef systems, drum roll, please ... " Depressed Ph Values " ... Nobody speaks about this aspect of Cyanobacteria production/control. Utilize this information on your own, PLEASE no debates on Cyanobacteria here, lets focus on the topic at hand ! If you wish to discuss, publically, initiate a thread and request my participation.

Now, to the reason I began writing this post initially ... ReefKeeper64. In your specific situation Id recommend dosing a quality bacterial supplement in conjunction with your BioPellet/NO3 regimen. It's of my well educated/experienced opinion that most all carbon dosers, solid or liquid, should be dosing a high quality bacteria supplement on a regular basis ...

*Competitive Inhibition

Best Regards,

 

[2hands]

It's of my well educated/experienced opinion that most all carbon dosers, solid or liquid, should be dosing a high quality bacteria supplement on a regular basis ...

*Competitive Inhibition

coralreefdoc,

Can you elaborate on you recommendation.

I would think if the system is mature and close to stead state then one would have all the bacteria they need.

 

[Bilk]

Now, to the reason I began writing this post initially ... ReefKeeper64. In your specific situation Id recommend dosing a quality bacterial supplement in conjunction with your BioPellet/NO3 regimen. It's of my well educated/experienced opinion that most all carbon dosers, solid or liquid, should be dosing a high quality bacteria supplement on a regular basis ...

*Competitive Inhibition

Best Regards,

Sounds like some of the "bottled" systems out there. Something with "vit" comes to mind - dosing a bacterial source in addition to carbon.

 

[ItzGenX]

I have been dosing NaNO3 for a few weeks now. Before dosing, I couldn't figure out why my montipora caps were fading in color, heteractis crispa turned almost entirely white, and hair algae didn't have much trouble growing all over the place (not in plague proportions). My nitrates were always zero with vodka, skimming and algae scrubber. I added my DIY biopellet reactor a week after my anemone turned white (but still ate anything that touched it), and I stopped vodka dosing. The reactor's output is fed straight into the skimmer, but I did not notice much of a difference in skimmate. My algae scrubber ever since the anemone turned white was growing very little green on the screen. Most of the growth was either yellow or coated in brown diatoms and fell off at the slightest touch.

After ordering my hanna phosphate checker and testing 3 times a day for 3 days, my phosphate readings were at a steady 0.15ppm. The silly salifert and elos test kits were too hard to read and usually read a lot lower by my eyes. Stupid color charts are a pain to read in the first place, so it could have been higher depending on who looked at it.

Day 1, I added 1/4 tsp of NaNO3 (sodium nitrate) to sump at 2am the first time. I also did a nitrate test to see where I was at from 1/4 tsp dose an hour later. The reading came up to somewhere between 1.5 and 2.0ppm in a system of 250gal+55gal.

The next day, I tested the nitrate reading, and it was almost at a reading of zero. I also tested for phosphate on 3 seperate samples, and all the samples read 0.09ppm. Since the nitrates were almost at zero, I followed up with another 1/4 tsp and performed a nitrate test about an hour later. The numbers came up to about the same as the night before at 1.5-2ppm.

Day 3, I tested for nitrates, and it fell back down to zero. I noticed the montipora caps coloring back up also. The hair algae in the tank seems to be dying off, and the anemone now has a tinge of tan. I also pulled 3 water samples to check the phosphates, 0.05ppm. Added 1/4 tsp of NaNO3.

Day 4, nitrates tested at about 0.8ppm, phosphates at 0.00. The anemone looks almost normal now, and the montipora caps are very glowing neon in color instead of pastel colors. The random hair algae on the rocks have turned almost white. I also noticed that the algae growing on the algae scrubber is almost nuclear green and lush. The softball sized chaeto clump has doubled. I added 1/8 tsp of NaNO3 to bring the nitrates up to around 1.5.

From the initial NaNO3 dose to when the phosphates dropped to 0, the skimmer has pulled almost 1/3 of a gallon PER DAY of thick and dark skimmate. After the phosphates hit zero, the skimmer slowed down a bit in production and really only pulls gunk out for a few hours after each feeding.

After the phosphates have hit 0 on day 4, the nitrates have had a slower drop to zero (since phosphates are now limited). I put in 1/8 tsp of sodium nitrate every time it falls below 1ppm, which is about once every 3 days. My rocks now look clean, coralline algae is popping up everywhere at an alarming rate, monti caps are glowing and growing quick as they should, anemone is normal colored, and my algae scrubber has slowed down in growth but stays green.

I am planning on taking the algae scrubber offline, and just rely on the chaeto for night time pH to see how far it drops without it.

 

[mhucasey]

Thanks ItzGenX for the very detailed report and It's great to hear another success story with this technique

The goal for every reef should be to have a sustainable nutrient management process, where we limit the tinkering and number chasing. Not only is this better for the animals but if you want to keep your tank long term you need to set up your system to have easy to maintain equipment and processes.

I recently completed an overhaul to my tank to move all my equipment to the garage, and upsized the skimmer significantly. All the water from the overflow now will flow through conical settling tanks first, then through the skimmer before going to a small sump and then back to the tank. With the equipment in its original location, I could not adequately access and clean the sump or skimmer.

About two weeks before i started making the changes a phosphate test came out with 0.05ppm and nitrate at 2ppm. The nitrate number had held very steady for about 2 months so I really wasn't paying attention to it.
Several days after taking the old sludge covered sump off-line and getting the sump and skimmer portion of the system running, I saw some very pale sps corals and anemones and LPs corals that were not expanding normally. I also had a big increase in Cyano on the sand and some of the rocks.

During all this I had maintained my vinegar/nitrate dosing that should add about 1ppm nitrate per day. I tested the phosphates and they were high(0.15ppm), and nitrate made absolutely zero color change on the Salifert test.

I immediately added nitrate to bring the value up to 2ppm. The next morning it was already undetectable. I added 2ppm that day and the next. Now the cyano is almost gone and the corals are already coloring back up.

I had not taken into account the constant nitrate production from the sludge in the sump that I was not able to clean. The bacteria had become nitrogen limited even though I have continued to add some through the dosing pump. I will assess what the needs of the tank are again using a methodology like yours and determine a new dosing rate that I can maintain moving forward.

Long term, the new design ensures that there will be no nutrient creep from gunk piling up in hard to reach places, so my long term maintainability will be better as well.

 

[ItzGenX]

My refugium compartment of my sump is almost entirely full of live rock rubble since I didn't want any of it in my display tank. Any settling in this area is either used up by chaeto or pods since I refuse to remove 100lbs of rubble just to siphon the gray mulm that is down on the bottom. Just by observing the small viewable areas of the gray dust under the rubble, I can see endless amounts of amphipods, mysis, worms, and tiny brittle stars playing in it like a sandbox. The more common areas for settling are under my skimmer platform and in the return pump compartment, and I usually siphon these areas clean once a month.

 

[Bilk]

Gallant protector of the faith... people make interesting discoveries on their journeys, and there is an element of excitement when we learn new things (maybe not new to you) - why not encourage learning rather than stomping all over it... no one's taking credit for inventing anything. It's a hobby, relax.



They say green algae only consumes SRP.

If you hadn't noticed already, there's quite a few with inflated egos in this hobby. :hmm5: Some love to exhibit it here right on RC LOL

 

[Tigé21v]

Does anyone know if either Walgreens or CVS (my two local chain pharmacies) carries KNO3 (saltpeter)?

 

[pfoxgrover]

I don't know, but I just purchased 4 oz of 99.4% pure Sodium Nitrate NaNo3 on ebay for 10 bucks with free shipping. I'm going to try that first as I don't have any way to test for Potassium levels. I think either would work though.

 

[tomservo]

Potassium nitrate is usually available at walmart in the gardening section, sold as stump remover. (US only). Some hardware stores will have it as well, ACE is usually a good bet.

 

[herring_fish]

I bought mine at Lowes Home Improvement Store under the name of Spectracide Stump Remover Granules.