Dosing Nitrate to reduce Phosphate

My tank is NO3 limited, has been testing 0 on three different Salifert tests for months, but I do have PO4, (.04 per Hanna) my solution has been simple, GFO. Maybe I am looking it all wrong, but it seems ludicrous to dose nitrate to help bacteria consume the phosphates, that is what GFO is for, and it works very well. Driving to Dallas to get to Houston may make a nice trip but it is very inefficient when the goal is to get to Houston.
 
I'd never dose nitrates. Haven't heard of doing that before. Water changes and GFO are my pick. I'm at 0 or near 0 for both and that is for my newer 3-4 mos old system.

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coralreefdoc: TS asked one simple question.
This might sound like blasphemy but is it possible to dose nitrate to reduce phosphates?
And No, its not blasphemy and Yes its possible, doable, used and very very effective.

And yes, Kno3 will raise K but long before that you will have a seriuos no3 problem. So in a reef tank when used to help export po4 using carbon dosing its in not a relevant problem.

We are in the "Advanced Topics" forum after all, right? Isnt this EXACTLY what this part of the forum is for? In the Beginners forum, no, i might not have even bothered posting.
Im here to learn and share the little bit of knowledge i have.

And i fail to se how it is more advanced and hard to dose a little no3 then "implementing bioballs correctly".

And speaking of that, i am very very curious of what that implementation is. I have never used bioballs myself and i am in no way saying it wont work. Please explain, it sounds like to good to be true.

sirreal63 & gweston: yes, gfo and water changes is an excellent way of reducing po4, i dont think anyone will deny that :) It was not wat TS asked about tho, was it?

And no, its not "ludicrous" to dose No3. It's just a lack of understanding. Also Gfo costs money, a bit of NaNo3 or Kno3 is almost free :)
 
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OP, if you start up nitrate dosing let us know how it goes. I see a lot of people advocating it but they never seem to post results. I have been looking into dosing nitrate as well.
 
It may work just fine, but is it easier, better or advanced? The goal is to reduce the PO4, addressing that and directly removing the PO4 is the easiest way to achieve the goal. I just re-ordered HC GFO, 60 bucks and it will last about 2 years, that's 30 bucks a year or .082 cents a day. 8 cents a day to keep the PO4 in check is pretty cheap, easy and corrects the problem in one step.

Some tanks are better able to process NO3 than others, so I am curious what happens when you add NO3 to a tank that processes it very well, (just to help remove PO4) how much testing and adjusting will you have to do to max out the processing ability and gain enough NO3 to allow bacteria to consume the PO4? It seems to me to be as counter intuitive as physicians treating symptoms instead of addressing the problem.

I am very much in favor of thinking out of the norm, but sometimes you have to think about what you are actually doing and decide if it is better or not. Dosing NO3 may very well work, but is it really the best course of action towards the goal of removing PO4? I am not saying don't do it, but rather why are you doing it and is it worth it? Personally, I can afford 8 cents a day and not have to worry with testing constantly and adjusting doses of something my tank already processes very well, without my intervention. :-)
 
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coralreefdoc: Ts asked one simple question.

And no, its not blasphemy and yes its possible, doable, used and very very effective.

I dont recall ever stating otherwise, in fact I was the one who initially addressed it as the best "chemical option", other than Granular Ferric Oxide, long before you showed up.

and yes, kno3 will raise k but long before that you will have a seriuos no3 problem. So in a reef tank when used to help export po4 using carbon dosing its in not a relevant problem.

I tend to agree, for those with some skill in dosing, it likely would not become a legitimate problem ... However, it should be tested for (long before dosing kno3 for those in the advanced/carbon dosing category) if one is dosing kno3 or any other k derivative for that matter !

we are in the "advanced topics" forum after all, right? Isnt this exactly what this part of the forum is for? In the beginners forum, no, i might not have even bothered posting.
Im here to learn and share the little bit of knowledge i have.

I agree here as well. Didnt realize this was in the Advanced Topics forum, was under the impression it was a Reef Discussion thread ... However, if you read through all the posts in this thread a great deal of them are implying lack of knowledge/experience in regards to this topic, are they not ?

Not to pick on anybody that doesnt deserve it, as that isnt my M.O. nor the goal of this statement, but if you look at one of the previous posts after i stated using bbs, etc to increase no3, in order to more efficiently lower po4, a gentleman stated something to the effect of "im going to do that too and start making some nitrates" ... Now, if I would have stated, from the utter beginning of this conversation/thread, that I had been dosing kno3 religiously, multiple times daily do you think that his reef, or anyother similar individuals reef, would be in a better condition for it ?

Im simply looking out for the best interest of the all of the fellow reefkeepers here, and even moreso the organisms in which they keep that ive been passionate about since before i can remember ! I couldve simply regurgitated all the information, and related material, on this topic and left it carelessly for many others to have failed attempts trying to emulate. That wouldve resulted in a great deal of coral stress/death which couldve been easily avoided by recommending/speaking about other less aggressive forms of no3 production.


and i fail to se how it is more advanced and hard to dose a little no3 then "implementing bioballs correctly".

Seriously ? A concentrated chemical compound versus a porous material which enhances the ability of bacteria to adhere to ...

and speaking of that, i am very very curious of what that implementation is. I have never used bioballs myself and i am in no way saying it wont work. Please explain, it sounds like to good to be true.

Are you ...

Basically, it involves placing the BBs after a quality source of mechanical filtration, in an area of adequate flow and o2/co2 gas exchange, in order to ensure relatively large particulates do not become trapped within the complex structure of the BBs.

What is it that sounds too good to be true to you ?

Feel free to research other specifics, in regards to "implementing bioballs correctly", on your own time ... Im sure youll find a wealth of information on the topic.


sirreal63 & gweston: Yes, gfo and water changes is an excellent way of reducing po4, i dont think anyone will deny that :) it was not wat ts asked about tho, was it?

Yes, you are correct. No, it wasnt what the TS/OP asked about originally ... However, other than too much water flow through a GFO Rx, thus rapidly decreasing alkalinity, a quality gfo/po4 remover has far less serious overdosage consequences and should be considered before kno3 by most reefkeepers out there.

and no, its not "ludicrous" to dose no3. It's just a lack of understanding. Also gfo costs money, a bit of nano3 or kno3 is almost free :)


Yes it is less expensive, but many of us including myself are not in this hobby to penny pinch on the important/not very expensive to begin with items/chemicals/etc. Again, its alot more aggressive/easily overdosed form of increasing NO3s, " its NOT ... "just a lack of understanding" !

If you still think so then, please, enlighten us all ...
 
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coralreefdoc: TS asked one simple question.

And No, its not blasphemy and Yes its possible, doable, used and very very effective.

And yes, Kno3 will raise K but long before that you will have a seriuos no3 problem. So in a reef tank when used to help export po4 using carbon dosing its in not a relevant problem.

We are in the "Advanced Topics" forum after all, right? Isnt this EXACTLY what this part of the forum is for? In the Beginners forum, no, i might not have even bothered posting.
Im here to learn and share the little bit of knowledge i have.

And i fail to se how it is more advanced and hard to dose a little no3 then "implementing bioballs correctly".

And speaking of that, i am very very curious of what that implementation is. I have never used bioballs myself and i am in no way saying it wont work. Please explain, it sounds like to good to be true.

sirreal63 & gweston: yes, gfo and water changes is an excellent way of reducing po4, i dont think anyone will deny that :) It was not wat TS asked about tho, was it?

And no, its not "ludicrous" to dose No3. It's just a lack of understanding. Also Gfo costs money, a bit of NaNo3 or Kno3 is almost free :)
actually it is pretty ludicrous to dose Kno3. Matter of fact without guidelins for safe effective use, gfo ,vodka, kalk or any other additive would be ludicrous to dose as well.
If you have researched guidelines to dosing Kno3, you should post them up. If not then advicing someone to dose something into their tank is very irresponsible and not anything advanced at all.
 
It may work just fine, but is it easier, better or advanced? The goal is to reduce the PO4, addressing that and directly removing the PO4 is the easiest way to achieve the goal. I just re-ordered HC GFO, 60 bucks and it will last about 2 years, that's 30 bucks a year or .082 cents a day. 8 cents a day to keep the PO4 in check is pretty cheap, easy and corrects the problem in one step.

Some tanks are better able to process NO3 than others, so I am curious what happens when you add NO3 to a tank that processes it very well, (just to help remove PO4) how much testing and adjusting will you have to do to max out the processing ability and gain enough NO3 to allow bacteria to consume the PO4? It seems to me to be as counter intuitive as physicians treating symptoms instead of addressing the problem.

I am very much in favor of thinking out of the norm, but sometimes you have to think about what you are actually doing and decide if it is better or not. Dosing NO3 may very well work, but is it really the best course of action towards the goal of removing PO4? I am not saying don't do it, but rather why are you doing it and is it worth it? Personally, I can afford 8 cents a day and not have to worry with testing constantly and adjusting doses of something my tank already processes very well, without my intervention. :-)

I can only agree with everything. Find what works for you and what helps you achieve your goals and stick with it and hopefully you will get great results.

I like bacteria, for now at least. for me dosing a bit nano3 works, but i also have BioPhos80 and ultraphos ready if i ever need it. :)

:dance:
 
actually it is pretty ludicrous to dose Kno3. Matter of fact without guidelins for safe effective use, gfo ,vodka, kalk or any other additive would be ludicrous to dose as well.
If you have researched guidelines to dosing Kno3, you should post them up. If not then advicing someone to dose something into their tank is very irresponsible and not anything advanced at all.

I have not advised anyone to do it, nor will i ever. I will however share my experiences in this hobby. I have no researched guidelines what so ever, i learnt it at a swedish reef forum and experimented with it.

And no, its not advanced. I think?

This is the assumption i have been doing my no3 dosing on:

"HELLO MATE! im a bacteria! :bounce3: i wanna eat a part of Po4! But oh no! i need 106 parts carbon and 16 parts no3 to do it :( and blimey, there just ain't no no3 to be found in this here box of glass :("

Id love to get more input on this if possible :)
 
Depending on the size of the tank, could you safely dose one drop of pure ammonia, wait a day or so, test and go from there?
 
I have not advised anyone to do it, nor will i ever. I will however share my experiences in this hobby. I have no researched guidelines what so ever, i learnt it at a swedish reef forum and experimented with it.

And no, its not advanced. I think?

This is the assumption i have been doing my no3 dosing on:

"HELLO MATE! im a bacteria! :bounce3: i wanna eat a part of Po4! But oh no! i need 106 parts carbon and 16 parts no3 to do it :( and blimey, there just ain't no no3 to be found in this here box of glass :("

Id love to get more input on this if possible :)

the redfield ratio does not work for our systems.... if it did one can reduce .1ppm phosphate to zero with 1.6ppm nitrate and it just does not happen. you may want to notice that most people have a higher ratio of nitrate to phosphate when they start dosing. anyways a proven way to reduce the water column po4 will be through gfo... Also nitrates will climb above redfielld ratio when one lets detritus accumulate. to get rid of the added po4 if it is trace is to not be super diligent on keeping the tank ultra clean and let it do its thing.
 
Basically, it involves placing the BBs after a quality source of mechanical filtration, in an area of adequate flow and o2/co2 gas exchange, in order to ensure relatively large particulates do not become trapped within the complex structure of the BBs.

What is it that sounds too good to be true to you ?
So basically nitrification, nitrogen cycle. Which i ofcourse knew, i just wanted you to confirm it or suprise me.

The mechanical filtration, however high quality, will trap detritus that leech P into the system while the bioballs helps with Nitrogen cycle.

Add to this Carbon dosing and skimming or some effective denitrification somewhere in the system ... and viola!:

creating exactly the problem TS is facing. 0 No3, but detectable Po4.

:headwalls:
 
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the redfield ratio does not work for our systems.... if it did one can reduce .1ppm phosphate to zero with 1.6ppm nitrate and it just does not happen. you may want to notice that most people have a higher ratio of nitrate to phosphate when they start dosing. anyways a proven way to reduce the water column po4 will be through gfo... Also nitrates will climb above redfielld ratio when one lets detritus accumulate. to get rid of the added po4 if it is trace is to not be super diligent on keeping the tank ultra clean and let it do its thing.

I cant speak for other people. I can only talk about my own experiences. I started dosing due to detectable P.

But .... how on earth can one have a No3 problem in a tank? maybe in FO tanks with very little biological filtration and very heavy biological loads. And poor tank husbandry meaning leaving poo and food en masse in the tank.

Keeping N to 0 is childs play. Just add nitrification/denitrification in whatever way suits you. And keep good tank husbandry ofcourse.

But then again letting fish poo and detritus rot in your tank is a good way to have a No3 problem as well. So if doing tank husbandry that way yes, i understand why "most people" (i guess you) have that problem when starting to dose.

P reduction is trickier since the end stage of the Phosphorous cycle isnt gas that leaves the system like the Nitrogen cycle. Skimming+dosing/ATS/Phosphate removal media is the answer. Take your pick.

And take your pick based on accumulated knowledge, personal preference and religion. (dsb/bb/zeovit/other)

:wavehand:
 
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Depending on the size of the tank, could you safely dose one drop of pure ammonia, wait a day or so, test and go from there?

I guess. Some say that Ammonia is the purest form of N and best as food for corals. But id be very careful with that. It does act as an trigger for algea to proliferate. This with Po4 is bad in my book.

Nitrate is just as good as food for corals. And easier to calculate dosing:

Ca 40 gram Kno3/NaNo3 in half a litre of water. 1 ml of this will raise No3 ca 0.5 ppm per 100 litre.

On another note i find it funny that most people, even in this thread i guess, happily dose Amino Acids. AA is just another form of Nitrogen.
http://www.coralscience.org/main/articles/nutrition-6/amino-acids
Amino acids are important as well, accounting for 21% of the nitrogen budget
 
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I cant speak for other people. I can only talk about my own experiences. I started dosing due to detectable P.

But .... how on earth can one have a No3 problem in a tank? maybe in FO tanks with very little biological filtration and very heavy biological loads. And poor tank husbandry meaning leaving poo and food en masse in the tank.

Keeping N to 0 is childs play. Just add nitrification/denitrification in whatever way suits you. And keep good tank husbandry ofcourse.

But then again letting fish poo and detritus rot in your tank is a good way to have a No3 problem as well. So if doing tank husbandry that way yes, i understand why "most people" (i guess you) have that problem when starting to dose.

P reduction is trickier since the end stage of the Phosphorous cycle isnt gas that leaves the system like the Nitrogen cycle. Skimming+dosing/ATS/Phosphate removal media is the answer. Take your pick.

And take your pick based on accumulated knowledge, personal preference and religion. (dsb/bb/zeovit/other)

:wavehand:
Most people is a statement of trend when people begin to dose carbon. I tend to see folks dosing with 5ppm+ nitrate and po4 readings at say .05 to .1 ppm. The nitrate goes but the po4 does not drop as well.
unfortunately carbon dosing has become trendy and people do it when they really need to rework filtration and address husbandry issues. When bacteria process waste through ammonia and nitrite more nitrate is released than phosphate over the redfield ratio. Hence why one gets much higher nitrate readings over po4 when they have a tank that needs better cleanup and nitrification processes. There has to be a point in which the filtration and removal of detritus become slightly detrimental to the tanks bacterial processes.... at this point that person then has a phosphate reduction problem. Also think about a tank after a cycle... high nitrate and trace to zero readable po4. when the ammonai and nitrite portionof the cycle reads zero.
 
Current discussions like this and others make methink back to the 90's. My tank was what one would deem today a "nitrate factory". had crushed coral and bioballs. funny thing is that nitrate factory never had an algae problem. Water went from overflow to wet dry out through uv and back to the tank. My husbandry was pretty bad too... never siphoned the substrate although would give it a good cleaning twice a year.
 
I think Dosing nitrate has been done before and many may be doing it without knowing......

Anybody thought about which Zeo products could contain some nitrate in order to drop the phosphate levels?. ;)

Mo
 
I avoid Zeo products, I don't want to have to wrap my head in tinfoil or anything weirder. :lol::lol::lol:
 
So basically nitrification, nitrogen cycle. Which i ofcourse knew, i just wanted you to confirm it or suprise me.


You sir are a parrot ...

Youve failed to "surprise" any of us with an ounce of knowledge/technique, only confirmed what has been obvious all along ... That you do not fully understand the very topic of which you speak.

Thus, your forced to resort to that annoying, sarcastic questioning as if you already knew all of that subsequent information too


The mechanical filtration, however high quality, will trap detritus that leech P into the system while the bioballs helps with Nitrogen cycle.

This is why the Aquarist changes these out on a regular basis. Maintenance 101. Lets see if I can find you a link ...

Add to this Carbon dosing and skimming or some effective denitrification somewhere in the system ... and viola!:

creating exactly the problem TS is facing. 0 No3, but detectable Po4.

What are you sententiously rambling on about here/now ?

After you peruse the link on general reef maintenance, you will discover that once mechanical filtration is exported, "Voila!" so are most of the PO4s from the organics, etc within ...

Now, youre likely "very very curious about the implementation" of this phenomena as well, as it probably "sounds too good to be true" to you, huh.
 
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