Dosing Nitrate to reduce Phosphate

[swcc]

Done it before with NaNO3 added at 1 ppm per day along with ethanol dosing in an NPS tank. It is quite effective to lower PO4 concentration to undetectable.

Maybe it's just me, but setting up a bioball tower or rinsing out filter socks seems far less easy than just adding a couple drops of nitrate every day. GFO is nice of course but dosing nitrate can enhance PO4 removal.

If one uses filter socks...it is the less rinsing that will help increase nitrate(less interaction with the tank).
It really makes zero sense to dose something that your tank already is producing and processing.
Oh, what could be easier than a bioball tower...stick bioballs in the tank and your done.

 

[jazzman7838]

You are correct in your viewpoint of this being the Advanced Topics, however, I noticed you are a new(er) member here ... You'd be surprised at the amount/frequency of those same ReefKeepers starting threads with a general topic along the lines of "Help! I started a 2part supplement dosing and now my salinity is 1.030!" or "Why are my corals dying, I only added 25ml of Vodka one time, everyone else is dosing about that for their systems daily ?!?"

We should be cognizant of the fact that many ReefKeepers believe they are at a higher level of experience/understanding than they actually are ... Even though this is the Advanced Topics forum, there are still ReefKeepers who frequent this forum who arguably should not be implementing some of the strategies/techniques etc found here !

Unfortunately, the negative consequences of those actions befall directly upon the organisms kept by that person ... As the presenters of this information WE ALL need to hold ourselves more accountable/take some responsibility for the possible negative consequences/reactions of said information/techniques/strategies/chemical compounds/ etc ! We can do this in many ways, from including/initially suggesting less aggressive alternatives to presenting as much detailed information on the correct implementation/negative reactions as possible, in order to help insure our fellow members/ReefKeepers are providing the best environment possible for these organisms !

If you still disagree with that than I seriously question your motive(s) for being a ReefKeeper/fellow member ...

But...your suggestion was to just add more fish. That is a more dangerous recommendation to a novice aquarist than any of the others presented so far in this thread.

 

[jazzman7838]

It really makes zero sense to dose something that your tank already is producing and processing.

Not if your tank is so good at processing it that it's limiting the growth of something.

Similar reactionary arguments were made about vodka dosing 7 years ago or so. If it works, what is the downside to adding a few drops every day? It's not difficult, takes up no space, requires no maintenance. It is only dangerous to your tank inhabitants if you are grossly negligent with it (as is food, kalkwasser, light, etc.).

I can think of lots of downsides to adding filter socks, or feeding more, or adding bioballs to a system, all alternate methods that were suggested in this thread to increase nitrate. Of course feeding is an input of phosphate also, the very thing trying to be eliminated in the first place! So, reduce phosphate by...adding more phosphate?

 

[sirreal63]

Maybe I just like to keep things simple, I reduce PO4 by removing PO4, hence GFO. It is cheap, simple and effective. It doesn't really get any easier than that.

 

[swcc]

Not if your tank is so good at processing it that it's limiting the growth of something.

Well if it is so good at processing it(nitrate)...how will dosing nitrate help.:spin2:

 

[jazzman7838]

Well if it is so good at processing it(nitrate)...how will dosing nitrate help.:spin2:

Because as bacteria grow and incorporate more nitrate, they incorporate more phosphate too...are you familiar with the idea of a limiting resource in biology?

 

[jazzman7838]

Maybe I just like to keep things simple, I reduce PO4 by removing PO4, hence GFO. It is cheap, simple and effective. It doesn't really get any easier than that.

No doubt. There are multiple ways to skin a cat--GFO, lanthanum chloride, carbon dosing, macroalgae, etc.

 

[swcc]

Because as bacteria grow and incorporate more nitrate, they incorporate more phosphate too...are you familiar with the idea of a limiting resource in biology?

and reducing sock changing frequency..not cleaning substrate and rocks of detritus as frequently, not cleaning out setting area of overflow or sump...same effect... Well except one.. additional effect as you also have increased bacteria processing ammonia and nitrite as well and thereby using up even more Phosphate... see there is little sense to add poop byproduct to a tank that already produces poop byproduct.

In the OP's case he runs skimmer filter sock and chaeto...need more nitrate... cut the chaeto in half or adjust amount as necessary(maybe take it out completely)..or like I also mentioned he can keep his filter socks in a day or two extra between cleaning. simple effective ways to increase nitrate without the need to add anything...simple adjust what one currently has going on filtration wise.
advanced reefing is balancing a system to run perfectly with as little input and complication as possible.. it is not chasing one's tail and adding nutrients to reduce nutrients especially when the tank is producing those nutrients to begin with.

 

[jazzman7838]

and reducing sock changing frequency..not cleaning substrate and rocks of detritus as frequently, not cleaning out setting area of overflow or sump...same effect... Well except one.. additional effect as you also have increased bacteria processing ammonia and nitrite as well and thereby using up even more Phosphate... see there is little sense to add poop byproduct to a tank that already produces poop byproduct.

In the OP's case he runs skimmer filter sock and chaeto...need more nitrate... cut the chaeto in half or adjust amount as necessary(maybe take it out completely)..or like I also mentioned he can keep his filter socks in a day or two extra between cleaning. simple effective ways to increase nitrate without the need to add anything...simple adjust what one currently has going on filtration wise.
advanced reefing is balancing a system to run perfectly with as little input and complication as possible.. it is not chasing one's tail and adding nutrients to reduce nutrients especially when the tank is producing those nutrients to begin with.

You know all those strategies release phosphate along with nitrate, compounding the problem? If you cut the chaetomorpha in half, yes, there may be more detectable nitrate in the water, but know what else chaetomorpha removes? Phosphate! Letting detritus rot on the rocks is a net source of many things, nitrate being just one of them. Phosphate is another. I don't know why on earth anyone would recommend not removing detritus in a modern reef aquarium as a solution to anything.

 

[swcc]

You know all those strategies release phosphate along with nitrate, compounding the problem? If you cut the chaetomorpha in half, yes, there may be more detectable nitrate in the water, but know what else chaetomorpha removes? Phosphate! Letting detritus rot on the rocks is a net source of many things, nitrate being just one of them. Phosphate is another. I don't know why on earth anyone would recommend not removing detritus in a modern reef aquarium as a solution to anything.

I already went over this...read the thread.
Also note post #47...from another post he made in a different thread he feeds more heavily now to keep nitrate up above zero and this keeps his PO4 down. According to your beliefs this would also increase PO4 from the food....but it doesn't increase it in the water column thus indication it is more utilized by the processes in his tank.

 

[swcc]

No doubt. There are multiple ways to skin a cat--GFO, lanthanum chloride, carbon dosing, macroalgae, etc.

unfortunately with all these 'advances' folks still have a never ending battle with PO4 detectable in the water column....
I'd say it is not working by and large.

 

[jazzman7838]

unfortunately with all these 'advances' folks still have a never ending battle with PO4 detectable in the water column....
I'd say it is not working by and large.

Folks? Speak for yourself...phosphate is pretty easily controlled as can be seen by all the nice reef tanks on display here at RC.

 

[jazzman7838]

I already went over this...read the thread.
Also note post #47...from another post he made in a different thread he feeds more heavily now to keep nitrate up above zero and this keeps his PO4 down. According to your beliefs this would also increase PO4 from the food....but it doesn't increase it in the water column thus indication it is more utilized by the processes in his tank.

And I can probably find examples of other tanks where the opposite is happening. Fortunately I don't use a tank where a dozen different things got changed as evidence of...well, anything.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry
You can't use food to add N to a tank without concurrently adding a lot of P. If you wanted to add N without P, there are a few ways to do it. Adding NaNO3 or AAs would work (there are much more than "trace amounts" of N in AAs, despite that claim earlier).

So if the goal is to add N to make it non-limiting and reduce P, why use more food again?

 

[swcc]

Folks? Speak for yourself...phosphate is pretty easily controlled as can be seen by all the nice reef tanks on display here at RC.

LOL...guess that explains all the Po4 dillemas...like this thread then...:uhoh3:

to speak for myself...zero readable PO4...zero readable nitrate...skimmer, uv, rock and flow.

 

[swcc]

And I can probably find examples of other tanks where the opposite is happening. Fortunately I don't use a tank where a dozen different things got changed as evidence of...well, anything.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry
You can't use food to add N to a tank without concurrently adding a lot of P. If you wanted to add N without P, there are a few ways to do it. Adding NaNO3 or AAs would work (there are much more than "trace amounts" of N in AAs, despite that claim earlier).

So if the goal is to add N to make it non-limiting and reduce P, why use more food again?

focus on chemistry and you forget the most important subject...biology. specifically bacteria..their processes..and the resultant factors.

so...in a nut shell...bacteria..bacteria...bacteria.
You had it figured out almost back in post 66...you only forgot the multiplier of bacteria strains beneficial to ammonia and nitrite reduction. when his skimmer went off line...it increased all bacterial process and in such.. PO4 is fully utilized and goes to zero. it was not the nitrates doing it...it was the bacterial processes producing the nitrate and subsequent use of phosphate.
It boils down to striking a balance in your system between husbandry, filtration and biological processes...this is figuring out your tank and exhibiting advanced reefing. Dumping poop in your tank is not.
here is some advanced reefing for ya... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2206826

 

[coralreefdoc]

Jazzman. If you're going to quote someone, get the facts/wording/context straight ...

Note, I stated "at least" trace amounts ...

There were other out of context misquotes along the way as well.

I, for one, don't stand for the intentional manipulation of wording/context. Keep it valid sir, if you can't prove a/your point without resulting to misquotes, you have no argument, nor place among an intelligent discussion ... That's Bush League BS and it has no place here !

 

[jazzman7838]

focus on chemistry and you forget the most important subject...biology. specifically bacteria..their processes..and the resultant factors.

so...in a nut shell...bacteria..bacteria...bacteria.
You had it figured out almost back in post 66...you only forgot the multiplier of bacteria strains beneficial to ammonia and nitrite reduction. when his skimmer went off line...it increased all bacterial process and in such.. PO4 is fully utilized and goes to zero. it was not the nitrates doing it...it was the bacterial processes producing the nitrate and subsequent use of phosphate.
It boils down to striking a balance in your system between husbandry, filtration and biological processes...this is figuring out your tank and exhibiting advanced reefing. Dumping poop in your tank is not.
here is some advanced reefing for ya... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2206826

You consider THAT advanced reefing? Okay. More power to you, keep using whatever methods you think work best for you.

 

[jazzman7838]

Jazzman. If you're going to quote someone, get the facts/wording/context straight ...

Note, I stated "at least" trace amounts ...

There were other out of context misquotes along the way as well.

I, for one, don't stand for the intentional manipulation of wording/context. Keep it valid sir, if you can't prove a/your point without resulting to misquotes, you have no argument, nor place among an intelligent discussion ... That's Bush League BS and it has no place here !

Coming from the guy who called ormet a "parrot"?

You said there are "at least trace amounts" of nitrogen in amino acids. This is a bit disingenuous if you know amino acids are between 10-20% nitrogen by weight, on average. Would you describe seawater as having "at least trace amounts" of calcium, magnesium, or potassium? I think this is a bit like omitting the whole truth.

Adding AAs are one way of doing exactly what ormet and I have been saying works well all along--dosing organic carbon along with a bit of nitrogen, essentially. Combine this with the knowledge of how many nice looking tanks on RC use AA dosing. Hopefully this demonstrates that there is really nothing aggressive, ludicrous, (or any other term that has been used in this thread to characterize it in an emotional way) about nitrogen dosing.

 

[sirreal63]

Gentleman, please take it down a notch or two, this should be a discussion, not a mudslinging contest. There are no right or wrong answers, just different approaches. Respect the differences in each of our methods.

 

[swcc]

You consider THAT advanced reefing? Okay. More power to you, keep using whatever methods you think work best for you.

yup....keeping a tank up for 40 years...way more advance than tanks teetering on the edge of crash and burn.
I will keep on using methods that work best.