DSB Heresy

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always thought that water had two densities. One density for the solid-state, and another density for the liquid state.
Am I wrong in thinking that the density of water remains stable regardless of temperature?
I think it has something to do with the fact that water is not compressible.
 
Many of the planted tanks I have seen use wood but I have always used rocks. Never had any trouble with the cables. Always laid the cables covering the entire bottom of the tank just in case I wanted to re-do the landscape at some later point. Easy to move rocks, the Dupla cables are a take down the tank item to do it right - uses little suction cups with a plastic piece across the top to hold one run of the cable on each side (kind of like a telephone pole that only holds one cable on each side).

I would bet that whatever accumulates under the LR would be coming from the sides or the LR. If there were cables underneath the LR, there would be a pretty good convection current coming up around the edges taking that stuff up too.

I have never put anywhere near as much rock weight on the cables as you reefers use so I wonder about the cables in this application. Maybe if you set up an egg crate shelf across the bottom of the tank (or at least under the LR) with cables underneath you could do pretty much what you wanted with LR on top.

Also, I will add that I have done something a little different with the heating cables than most. Dupla was undergoing some changes (the original guys sold out then the new guys sold, and I think maybe they sold too). About the time of the last sale I noticed in their literature something about keeping the cables on longer with even lower wattage heating tahn they had previously recommended. So I got a small Peltier effect chiller and forced the tank temp down to the heater temp setting. I do not have it set to bring the heater on all the time but it definitely comes on far more frequently and for longer than it otherwise would. I know of others that use higher wattage cables and have claimed good results. I am not sure that either way is better, or if either really works.

I think a lot of the idea is to provide a slow moving current that gives the polluted water time to do the reduction thing in the substrate (isn't that what is going on down there in a DSB?). Then be heated and moved up into the water column so that the normal filter can take care of it. In this way there is no accumulation. However, they are also using live plants. Some of this stuff is taken up in the roots, perhaps by the leaves too from the water column. Remember the principle of a refugium.

Look, I stated initially that I have no idea about this - I just know enough to be kind of dangerous. :D I am not recommending this as a solution. I am only kind of regurgitating some info from my FW days that appeared might be a solution to this DSB problem. I was pretty good in Chemistry but that was atomic level stuff and this is more biology to me. I just brought it up to see if any of you expert bio guys had any idea about it. Maybe I should start a thread on this??

I will add that Dupla recommended a specific size range of gravel for this to work - 2-3 mm (or maybe 2-4). SOme of this size selection was to permit root growth. Too small and it would not let roots grow well, too large and the roots did not have enough to hang on to. I'll check if anyone wants to try.


salty joe,

Fluids and solids are pretty incompressible - least as far as I know (I'm an EE), or least no where to the extent gases are. But all substances change density with temperature to some degree. It gets colder, higher density. It gets warmer, less density. However, water exhibits a temperature dependent characteristic that no other known substance does. Right around the temperature at which it changes phase from liquid to solid its density increases slightly over a degree or two range, then it goes back to the slope (graphically speaking) it normally follows. This is what makes ice float. It is also what keeps the oceans from freezing over thus making the planet a large ice cube. IOW, it is why there is life as we know it on the planet. Amazing how such little things can make such a big difference. :)

Thanks
Charles
 
'...from liquid to solid its density increases slightly' --- should be decreases (ice is lower density than liquid water).
 
Absolutely right Obi-dad. I should have written decreases.

If I remember correctly the graph actually looks like it has a little 'S' curve in it starting about 33 F down to around or just below 32. Somewhere in there anyway.

Thanks for fixin' my mistake.

Charles
 
Re: DSB Heresy

ldrhawke said:
This is different filtration approach that is sure to cause controversy and sound like heresy to the DSB believers.
[/B]

I haven't taken the time to read the 20+ pages of replies posted here regarding this system, but... didn't Bob Goemans modify a plenum in the late 90's to do the exact same thing???

Bob, please chime in here.

ldrhawke-
Your tank and set-up is awsome. The entire package is very well planned and your results will show. I guess all I am saying is it's not a new idea.
 
this plenum-type on a 5yr. old tank

this plenum-type on a 5yr. old tank

Yesterday I met a fellow reefer for the first time who keeps his reef at his workplace. It's a 75 gallon that is fully stocked and then some. It houses SPS's, LPS's, fish and a wide variety of softies.

He uses (4) VHO bulbs, 2 actnics and 2 10k's, has LOTS of circulation, no sump, and a modded Seaclone skimmer and a heater.

To my surprise, I saw an uplift tube from his 5" DSB... and thought hmmm... is this the mechanical plenum-type discussed in this thread? It sure was! He uses a 1/8" ID drain tube and a simple plug to stop it from draining. His does not have the small-hole drilled tubing drain assembly in it. It only utilized an uplift tube, eggcrate, 1" eggcrate support legs, fine screening and filter floss media, all sealed off from the sandbed and connected to an uplift tube.

His tank has been set up and running non-stop for 5 years and several other reefers have told me this guy's reef tank is one of the most "bullet-proof" tanks they've ever seen. He's encountered several problems and has overcome them all without any deaths... until just recently which i'll get to following the next paragraph.

Everything this guy puts in his tank flourishes and grows like MAD! He told me that many of times he's pulled some of his overpopulated & overgrown Ricordea's and various other softies out of the tank and thrown them out in the parking lot, all because his tank gets too full! I saw it and believe it! Everything in his tank is HUGE.

Here's the kicker,
While working one day, he decided to do his daily 1/4-1/2 gallon plenum waste-water change and he walked away while it was draining into his 5 gallon waste collection jug. He FORGOT about it and left it draining until just over 1/2 the tank was drained!!!
:eek1: Now, if you've ever taken a whiff of the plenum's waste water.... holy crap does this stuff STINK!!! It's like super concentrated sulfur and skunk-*** mixed together! The smell is enough to make you take 2 steps back and almost hurl!

Long story short, the only coral he lost to this disaster was an SPS tri-color! We all guess that's attributed to the corals being very healthy. That happened over 1 1/2 month ago, and he said his tank recovered almost immediately.

The tank is not monitored by test kits, he supplements by habit/experience/visual inspection of his corals.

I think what makes this type of plenum successful, is small amounts of water being drained from the plenum slowly. At a rate that doesn't overly oxygenate the plenum.
 
staticfishmonger said:
the concept makes sense to me, at least to some degree. what i have been wondering is could you just have a bulkhead on the bottom which you could just open up a valve every once and awhile and basically do a water change through the bottom. you would be flushing the sand out from the bottom so that very little waste ended up in the water. would the aggressive flushing ruin the operation of a DSB? would this be equally effective on a shallow sand bed?

I was thinking of doing something like that, perhaps have another bulkead in the overflow box and out the bottom or back of the tank. What you are thinking about is basically and undergravel filter. I think the idea of the CPW is that you drain the most concentrated disolved organics and try to keep the O2 gradient and Redox gradient in the sand bed more or less constant by draining only a small bit at a time. I like the idea mentioned earlier of putting a redox probe, or maybe an O2 probe somewhere in the sand bed. Oh, and even a 2 inch sand bed is deep enough to have a gradient in the O2 concentration. Perhaps just set up a constant (timed) change in/out dosing system. Like have a dose in and dose out pump go off for a short time each day, and have a reserve fresh salt tank and it will auto change your water (I know this is not a new idea, but it could work well on a CPW...)

At any rate, I did ask Bob Goemans about this a while back and he said its nothing new and that it wasn't a good idea, but couldn't explain to me why its a bad idea. I personally think it should work quite well. I mean, look at the crap that drains out! Don't tell me that you would put that back in your tank! I mean, heck, some people were equally opposed to protein skimmers (some still are) and look at the stuff that comes out of your skimmer cup! Doesn't seem too much differnt to me.
 
Lrdhawke stated this before in this long thread about using your CPW to perform large water changes all at once.... quite simply you shouldn't do it.

It would oxygenate the plenum and your anaerobic bacteria's population would be in a constant flux which might lead to your tank crashing.

The guy I spoke to said he found the best method for draining by trial and error. He calculates that no more than 25-50% of the plenum's volume should be drained at any given time. He performs drains once a day during the week, and none during the weekends. He said he doesn't have an exact math or practice, you don't even have to do it 5 times a week or try to make up for a missed day.

Draining 25-50% of the plenum's volume ensures you don't wipe out the anaerobic state in the plenum too bad, making it easier for the anaerobic critters to catch back up. Doing it this way only mildly oxygenates the plenum.

My take on BB tanks, too much maintenance. Seems to me that constantly cleaning detrius off the BB's floor along with the water changes would be a PITA. My reef friends and I perform 10%water changes once a month, some maybe once every 5 weeks and all tanks are doing real well. We mostly top off our tanks with RO/DI water once every 10 days or more. Seems to me like BB tanks would require more frequent water changes. <Shrug> either way, i'm staying with a DSB.

My goal is to keep a beautiful tank, using current technology and MOST importantly, incorporating K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid)
:lol:
 
Don't want to debate the issue, but did you read Bomber's LONG tread? I simply don't see what possible advantage a DSB really has. Again, put it in Bomber's thread if you want to discuss it with them. I read through most of it and, after battling algae for the last six months with EVERY possible technique, I can't see how a BB could possibly be more work than a DSB.

Even Lrdhawke admits that the SIMPLICITY of it is its advantage. Just take some time and read through the thread and keep an open mind.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=223301&perpage=25&pagenumber=11
 
This thread was started after he posted in those two threads. If you read further in Bomber's thread (3 or 4 pages) you can read where he starts developing the idea.
 
'Oh, in case you guys havn't noticed, ldrhawke moved over to a bare bottom tank...'

tankslave, you had us going there for a second until Mike pointed out the timing of the threads. Good catch, Mike.
 
I was wondering if anyone would notice that. So maybe the BB discussion gave him the cpw idea.
But then I still don't see why you go to all that trouble to keep a DSB. Now you have to drain your DSB DAILY...
Why doesn't he respond to email anyway...
 
Tankslave,
Performing a daily drain on a CPW isn't time consuming at all, nor does it take much effort. For example... the amount drained from a 75gal. tank might be 1/8-1/4 a gallon at the most and might take all of 3 minutes. Furthermore, it doesn't have to be done daily. I spoke to my reef buddy with a CPW and he's gone 1 week without draining several times in the past.

I still can't believe the rotten, putrid and horrific stench that came from the CPW's drained water. It'd be an excellent torture/interrogating truth serium. I'd rather skin a dead skunk in an enclosed room than be stuck in a room with 1/4 cup of this stuff spilled on the floor!
 
How often to drain?

How often to drain?

Having run a plenum in the past for a few years without a drain, what decides the frequency which you drain the plenum?

Is the goal to maintain 'some' small amount of aerobic bacteria in a "sea" of anaerobics. Otherwise, what's to say draining 25-50% once a month is wrong or right? I would think the longer you wait, the less aerobes that would survive and less flux in your system.

I don't have the answer, just posing the question.
 
I honestly see no problem in having a fine sand upper layer. I have been running a related plenum system and I use fine oolictic upper layer. This upper layer is only 1 1/2" deep and mostly for looks. I use a deep lower layer of CC and oyster shell and I seperate the two with fine window screen. I have Tigertails and brittle stars wich keep the upper layer stirred quite nicely preventing it from clumping. The screen keeps those industrius little buggers from digging to deeply. So long as the sand stays stirred then there is no issue of compacting or restrition. As for the rest of the "CPW" theory, I feel it completely negates the function of a plenum. It does have merit though. But why pump out water on a daily basis? Cause you don't want a stinky plenum? Hydrogen Sulfide(H2S) is a natural byproduct of decomposition produced by anoxic bacteria. These bacterial thrive the hostile environment of an aged plenum. They also bind undesirable compounds and break others down into nitrogenous gases. It's in this environment that the plenum does it's "thing". Plenums, though, if left untended do finally overload and fail. A shipmate of mine has run a system close to this for years but he only pulls two gallons on plenum waste out every six months. Yes it's quite ripe but he put a drop under a microscope and there was still plenty of life in the water doing it's job. Why pull it out befor it has a chance to work?
 
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