DSB Heresy

I personally like your idea and it has merit. However, I do tend to agree with Shoestring Reefer. It is too new of an idea to prove conclusively. It may very well work like you say it will in the long term, but you've only been doing this for a few months. I'd like to see the results after a year or two.

It would really be nice if the "experts" would get involved in this thread. This is a perfect discussion for Dr. Ron and Randy Holmes-Farley.
 
MarkS said:
I personally like your idea and it has merit. However, I do tend to agree with Shoestring Reefer. It is too new of an idea to prove conclusively. It may very well work like you say it will in the long term, but you've only been doing this for a few months. I'd like to see the results after a year or two.

It would really be nice if the "experts" would get involved in this thread. This is a perfect discussion for Dr. Ron and Randy Holmes-Farley.

Thank your Mark,

But I don't believe it takes a year or two to prove if a process is working. Results can be measured and analysised. That is not to say the concept cannot be improved upon. The whole concept of waiting a year or two is based more on how long it took for a lot of DSB's to flip, than how long it takes to do reasonable analysis.

If I took a couple of years to apply every new and logical idea I have come up with I would not be in business. If the Wright Brothers did it we would all still be on the ground. :lol:
Sorry, I just do not understand the ultra conservative logic. Especially if you plan on installing a new DSB. You know a large percentage fail within two year and a significant number more within 5 years. Installing a plenum system as I describe, that can be disconnected at anytime, is no risk. Please explain what risk you perceive, that cannot be corrected.

First off...I am an expert in what I do. I respect and often use the expertise of men like Ron and Randy. I take the biological knowledge of men like Dr. Ron and the high degree of chemical expertise from a man like Randy and apply it to work in the real world. I hold numerous patents in doing this.

I don't think Dr. Ron and I would see eye to eye, but I could be wrong he appears to be wavering. He has demonstrated he has a lot of emotional baggage tied up in his DSB and critter concepts. I do not believe they can be long term successfully applied as he recommends.

Randy and I have had some discussions and we agree in a lot of areas. see below. You should read the whole thing so it is not taken out of context. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=282806

LDRHAwke statement: As usual you are absolutely right from the biochemical reaction side, but you are leaving out a major driving factor, the physical aspect.....fluid flow.

In any bed of porous semi-solid material it is difficult to obtain uniform flow. What will always happen is maldistribution of flow causing all the uniform processing and layer theories to fall apart as the flow short circuits and takes the easiest lowest pressure drop area to move through.


Randy's response: I agree that fluid flow is potentially important, and it is my theory that some folks may see better results with a plenum than a non-plenum sand bed because the plenum itself may encourage slight fluid flow in and out of the low oxygen regions.

That said, I think that fluid flow that is different in different spots mostly makes the "depth" at which certain transitions take place not be uniform. If there is a slight downward fluid flow, then the transition between O2 and NO3- based respiration moves deeper. Likewise, if there is a slight upward fluid flow, then the transition between O2 and NO3- based respiration moves upward.

Additionally, I agree that blocked regions will become anoxic regardless of depth, and so can pop up most anywhere if such blocking actually takes place.
 
WOW! I was just given a heads-up about this thread:mixed: As many of the posters know[from other DSB threads] my p/dsb system is now 10yrs.+ & I have not had any HA in my system:) With diligent funnel-syphoning & stirring-up the dsb, I have been able to keep exportation of waste in check despite a heavy bioload in which I feed the reef fish 3X's/d & maintain over 50 SPS's. I have found that doing this once/wk is necessary for my bioload. I personally like the plenum for denitrification & an marker for determining the depth of my bed cleaning[I NEVER disturb the plenum]. Idrhawke's system should work & may end up taking less maintenance. It takes me about 45min/wk. to clean 1/3 of dsb--just to give you all an idea of how easy it is to care for a p/dsb:) Bob
 
Thanks Doc,

I knew someone had to be out there already moving in the direction of CPW. It is just the next logical step to what you have been doing for ten years. It also may free up 45 minutes a week for you.... :rollface:
 
IdrHawke:lol: actually been doing the same funnel-syphoning as I did back in the 70's when we used UGF. As far as I know, Albert didn't start publishing until the mid-80's[no virtual knowledge exchange/computers then as we have now]. The p/dsb concept became well known in the early 90's by Jobert & Thiel's marine monthly began running articles about same shortly thereafter. Bob
 
Didn't A Thiel suggest this years ago??

A lot of good information and it confirms the value in CPW.

Theil's testing and set up was significantly different.

1. It was dripping back into the tank a small amount from the plenum. I do not agree with or the need to put the resultant anoxic sulfide soup back into your tank. Just because it is being diluted does not mean it is not having a long term negative affect or that you are not putting everything but nitrates back into the tank. Phosphate is certainly being recycled.

2. A convention plenum as he describes will cause short circuiting. If you dye traced it your would see all waste being removed is coming from right around the spot where the plenum discharges through the substrate. Little or nothing is coming from a few inches away.

3.By dripping you do not get a flushing action that helps to assure you have a more even takedown through the substrate.

4. With a grating system he describes you cannot get a uniform removal through the substrate bed.

These are significant process differences.
 
IdeHawke, I don't recall those procedures from his publication but later his online service [about 1995, didn't have a computer:( ] gave those suggestions? Bob
 
Thanks for the reference to Theil's work.
I find the independent test data he has accumulated and recorder for what happens in a plenum EXCITING.

I know he viewed it as negative and his conclusion states so, but he looked at the plenum as a glass half empty and not half full. There is a bright side to his tests.

It is verification of what I am finding. It is also verification that phosphates do accumulate in the plenum. It means that the plenum is a sink and collects and concentrates products we do not want in our tanks.

It means by using Controlled Plenum Wasting (CPW) these products can be and are removed from the tank.

_____________________________________________

Theil Report http://www.athiel.com/lib2/noplenum.htm


I started measuring the parameters of the water in the plenum after the sand was in the aquarium for one month. I then took measurements once a month at 30 days interval. The table below shows the results at timeframe 60, 90, 120, 150 and 180 days. I then skipped a few months in the reporting below (although the actual testing was done) and give you the results for the last months of the testing.

The method used for this was to insert a real small pipette through the sand layer and screening to the bottom of the tank so its end was definitely in the water that constituted the plenum. The glass pipette was left in place so no "holes" would be made (interestingly enough, it did not take long for that pipette, placed in the left corner of the tank, to be totally covered with coralline algae).

Below are the results for NO3, PO4, SiO2, pH and and O2. I did not measure any other parameters.

"the data below is based on 30 day interval reading from the plenum"


NO3 PO4 SiO2 pH O2
11 0.7 0.2 7.9 5.4
34 1.8 0.9 7.2 4.9
71 4.1 3.7 6.4 4.2
117 8.1 5.4 6.0 3.9
243 14.7 7.1 5.4 3.7

skipped a few months
for reporting purposes
_
520 19.4 11.3 4.9 3.2
614 21.6 14.7 4.9 3.2
803 23.4 15.3 4.7 3.2

It would appear that the progression of nutrients is gradual and upwards and that oxygen falls and so does the pH.

When I measured the pH after 18 months of running the tank and before taking the plenum out (that was an exercise!) the pH was actually 3.9 and the oxygen level had fallen to below 3mg/l. At that time NO3 was close to 900 ppm.

Of course to take all these test I had to use dilutions in certain cases as none of the tests measured in such high ranges. I remultiplied my results by the dilution factors to arrive at the end results.

Based on this test and a test on one small tank, for a shorter period of time where I discerned the same trends, the conclusion to be drawn from this in my opinion, that plenums pose a potential problem for the hobbyist and the animals in the tank.

Indeed:
These nutrients can leach back into the aquarium by means of osmosis
Any break or rupture or shallow area of the layers could result in these nutrients seeping back through into the water

If this happens to a large extent, the tank is going to be in real bad shape as large amounts of all the nutrients will suddenly mix with the tank's water.

If a slow osmosis of nutrients takes place, the tank will go through unexplained problems and algae outbreasks that cannot really be accounted for. Alternatively or in addition nitrate, phosphate and silicate may show up in the tank that the hobbyist cannot explain in terms of origin. Of course no one would suspect that the build up actually comes from nutrients that leach back into the tank's water from the cesspool of nutrients that the plenum has become.

For this reason I no longer use Plenums in reef tanks and no longer recommend them.
 
Good post,IdrHawke; I believe the reason for low or no phoshates in my plenum is weekly removal of same via dsb cleaning. Remember, the old saw on dsb's was NOT to syphon or stirr-up the bed.....basically let it perform magic:D Bob
 
I think you are right Bob.

Stirring up the bed weekly allows what may be accumulating in the bed to dissipate before it gets too concentrated and can do a lot of damage. It is exactly why you have had 10 years of service from your DSB/P.

There is no reason to believe the same basic thing is not happening in a conventional DSB. There could be several explanations as to why it may not be leaching back into the water column as easily as it did in Theil's testing.

1. Theil used a very coarse substrate above the plenum system. It allows easier diffusion back to the surface.

2. Either temperature or salinity changes of in the water column could easily force what is in the plenum to the surface.

3. DSB that use sugar sand are much denser and less porous, they do not allow the same fluid transfer as easily.

It would have been interesting if he would have done the same sampling in his conventional DSB tanks. I would bet he would have found similar readings. The difference simply begin that it isn't as easily fluxed back to the surface.

If you review Theil's data, the waste continues to increase in concentration. It is maybe even accelerating in concentration.

If you follow the time frame of going on two years, that kind of soup in the bottom of either a conventional DSB or a Plenum DSB could cause havoc when released back into the tank.

I goes hand and hand with the rash of failures in DSBs around two years.
 
ldrhawke said:
Shoe String,

If your think your wife was not impressed with your Fighting Conch, trust me....I am even less impressed with what you consider to be an apology.

You are on my IGNORE LIST. I do not want to spend the time and energy trying to convince you of anything.
I did not consider anything I said an apology. You are NOT on my ignore list.
 
IdrHawke, anyone who has kept a bb tank prior to keeping a dsb, noticed the detritus build-up right on the tank bottom[concencentrated No3- & Po4-]. Of course, the same thing occurs in a dsb system but it is not easily seen. Bacteria assimilate this into the bed. One MUST export this waste, as we used to do with the UGF........funnel-syphon & stir-up[or blast with a PH] & run a diatom filter or canister filter. Bob
 
One MUST export this waste, as we used to do with the UGF........funnel-syphon & stir-up[or blast with a PH] & run a diatom filter or canister filter

Hopefully CPW can either eliminate or greatly reduce the above.

I have been able to maintain an ORP reading approaching 400mv by wasting a half quart a day.

My ORP has had a difficult time staying much over 360 mv for the last few days. It still is maintaining a fairy high ORP with out the aid of ozone.

I have doubled my rate of wasting to see if wasting can control it and bring it back up again. It may take a week before I see a positive response.
 
Idrhawke,

I am intrigued with this idea and i think it has a lot of merit. Frankly i'd like to see for myself whether or not it works so I'm considering experimenting with it some, provided i can figure out how to automate the process (I'm in college and sometimes I only get to check the tank once a week or so). I think i can implement it fairly easily without detracting from the asthetics of the aquarium.

My idea is to carefully push short pieces of pre drilled PVC underneath the rock structure which could be assembled afterwards. This would be drained by a length of thin tubing which will pass between the double walled AGA overflow, down the tank drain and into a waste container. Because it would be run through the overflow it will be below water lever the whole way and starting a siphon should not be an issue. One way to automate the system would be to wire the flushing and replentishing into the auto topoff of the tank.

I have a couple of questions for you:

In your opinion, would a slow drip from the plenum be effective provided the water could be removed uniformly across the bottom of the sandbed? If not, do you believe smaller flushes of 1 pint or less every hour or two would be effective?

How would you suggest implementing such a system on a tank with an already established DSB?

later,
Steve
 
funny thing as im in the middle of the same concept and adapting it to my new 210g tank, but im not useing "automatic" methods of draining because i belive that leaves room for failure, so water removel will be done manually at the rate of 2 gallons a day.
 
Ahhh...... IdrHawke, be careful, more will be less----decrease the ORP. Plz. report your readings,Bob

Ahhh....what?:confused: ;)

The ORP is the normal reading without the addition of anything. An ORP reading of 400mv is considered good by everything I have ever read. My coral sure seem to like it. They remain in full bloom. I have no way of dropping it other than contaminating the tank.

If I throw the hydrogen sulfide wasting from the CPW it will drop it like a rock.

Rather counter productive don't you think.:lol:
 
Turtlesteve said:
Idrhawke,

I am intrigued with this idea and i think it has a lot of merit. Frankly i'd like to see for myself whether or not it works so I'm considering experimenting with it some, provided i can figure out how to automate the process (I'm in college and sometimes I only get to check the tank once a week or so). I think i can implement it fairly easily without detracting from the asthetics of the aquarium.

My idea is to carefully push short pieces of pre drilled PVC underneath the rock structure which could be assembled afterwards. This would be drained by a length of thin tubing which will pass between the double walled AGA overflow, down the tank drain and into a waste container. Because it would be run through the overflow it will be below water lever the whole way and starting a siphon should not be an issue. One way to automate the system would be to wire the flushing and replentishing into the auto topoff of the tank.

I have a couple of questions for you:

In your opinion, would a slow drip from the plenum be effective provided the water could be removed uniformly across the bottom of the sandbed? If not, do you believe smaller flushes of 1 pint or less every hour or two would be effective?

How would you suggest implementing such a system on a tank with an already established DSB?

later,
Steve

I would not retrofit a set up tank place. You're at risk of losing everything. Plus I cannot see how you can install a decent plenum system that way.
 
IdrHawke, I read your post such that you were going to increase the draw from the plenum[waste water]. If you're meaning increasing your vol. of water changes, you MAY realize a increase in the ORP. Bob
 
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