LakesPookie
New member
ha i was right the first time yay 
DSB Heresy
- Thread starter ldrhawke
- Start date
I don't know about anyone else, but when I read Ron's write up, I do not get very positive vibes from where conventional DSB tanks are destined. It does not read very pro-DSB.
If he is correct that the build up of heavy metal and other poisons will eventually cause any conventional DSB to go sour and potentially destroy everything in the tank, it doesn't sound like annual renewal of fresh new critters, as he continually advocates now, will solve anything. Based on his own words and studies, I still do not see how any conventional DSB can work in the long term without using CPW. Ron's paper seems to confirm my position and weakens his position that all you new are new bugs in the DSB every year. Does anyone read it differently?
I have been using a high drip rate continuos wasting through my DSB with CPW. I can see in the front of the tank, the my CC is now filled with nitrogen gas pockets throughout the whole DSB depth, the contention and fear that de-nitrification bacteria is killed by low flow rates into the bed doesn't appear to hold much water, if the amount of nitrogen gas my bed is producing is any indication.
I received my sulphur balls Monday and installed them....removed then 72 hours later when they did not appear to be reducing nitrates at all, I removed them and installed carbon pellets for the denitrification biological surface. Nitrates went back to 5ppm when I installed the sulphur balls and didn't appear to doing much of anything. The articles I read stated they start to work in hours. I went back to a very low alcohol dosing rate into my denitrification system and immediately went to zero nitrates discharged again.
I'm still hoping I will find some reduced continuous flow rate with CPW will be able to allow the DSB to denitrify the discharge without the need to feed alcohol, as the DSB becomes more biologically active. If it isn't possible, then simply installing a de-nitrification stage on the discharge remains a simple fix.
If he is correct that the build up of heavy metal and other poisons will eventually cause any conventional DSB to go sour and potentially destroy everything in the tank, it doesn't sound like annual renewal of fresh new critters, as he continually advocates now, will solve anything. Based on his own words and studies, I still do not see how any conventional DSB can work in the long term without using CPW. Ron's paper seems to confirm my position and weakens his position that all you new are new bugs in the DSB every year. Does anyone read it differently?
I have been using a high drip rate continuos wasting through my DSB with CPW. I can see in the front of the tank, the my CC is now filled with nitrogen gas pockets throughout the whole DSB depth, the contention and fear that de-nitrification bacteria is killed by low flow rates into the bed doesn't appear to hold much water, if the amount of nitrogen gas my bed is producing is any indication.
I received my sulphur balls Monday and installed them....removed then 72 hours later when they did not appear to be reducing nitrates at all, I removed them and installed carbon pellets for the denitrification biological surface. Nitrates went back to 5ppm when I installed the sulphur balls and didn't appear to doing much of anything. The articles I read stated they start to work in hours. I went back to a very low alcohol dosing rate into my denitrification system and immediately went to zero nitrates discharged again.
I'm still hoping I will find some reduced continuous flow rate with CPW will be able to allow the DSB to denitrify the discharge without the need to feed alcohol, as the DSB becomes more biologically active. If it isn't possible, then simply installing a de-nitrification stage on the discharge remains a simple fix.
Shoestring Reefer
New member
Well, ldrhawke's posts seem much more conservative then they started out (perhapse part of that was just his enthusiasm) and since spring has sprung here up North, my outlook is a bit more cheery.aqua_obs said:
Spring is the time of love, after all. :love1: :hmm2: :worried:
BORECKI
New member
I posted a while back at the begining of the thread and have been lurking since then. But I need to take execption to the above post. I started in this hobby with a BB tank. After not being able to keep a coral alive I went DSB (6 inches southdown in an attached refugium) now I have coral growth & reproduction and fish spawning. I may consider gutting the DSB on a regular basis and replacing the sand before ever going BB.Bomber said:
Boris.
P.S. One way to remove detrus which I'v done when I have nothing to do is to kick up a vicious storm in the tank and use floss in the drain to the sump. (AND pitch the floss when done!)
Bomber
10 & Over Club
Sheesh Louise! I said most. Besides we were talking about something else.
quote:
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Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
I never realized how much of my sand bed was actually poop until I went BB.
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Most of you guys entered the hobby with a DSB didn't you? You've never run a barebottom system?
That's why when we were trying to describe to you the massive amount of detritus that a DSB holds - you didn't have a clue what we meant!
If you had problems with a BB tank before, you weren't running it like we are now.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
I never realized how much of my sand bed was actually poop until I went BB.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most of you guys entered the hobby with a DSB didn't you? You've never run a barebottom system?
That's why when we were trying to describe to you the massive amount of detritus that a DSB holds - you didn't have a clue what we meant!
If you had problems with a BB tank before, you weren't running it like we are now.
BORECKI said:
I don't think Bomber is taking into account that using the high recirculation rates and a good skimmer, that he has found to work well on a BB, also benefit any DSB systems as well. The key to a successful DSB is also good tank turn over and skimming.
We have two opposing forces here 1) says bugs and bacteria in the sand are our friends in reef keeping, at the expensive of all other forms of life, and the other says 2) bugs and bacteria is the enemy, because they cause phosphates and detritus.
My reef tank is not to grow sand critters and it isn't to be a sterile box with minimal life either. I want my tank to be a living colorful under sea garden, I think the truth to accomplish that is some place in the middle. A major key is to being able to remove and control nitrates and phosphates.
If your look at the tanks of the Month on RC it is obvious that there is no single answer to succeed in doing that other than attention to what you are doing and understanding what is happening. Thank God for RC to stimulate the gray matter with different view points.
Bomber
10 & Over Club
I thought I was. LOL Boy, you guys sure do get testy - stop and take into account my lack of coffee sometimes.
You just can't get enough circulation with sand or gravel to blow that stuff away and make it all available for the skimmer.
Nope, sand beds do what sand beds do.
brian crosson
New member
A plenum, a DSB, and a bare bottom are not the same idealism just the same space.
brian crosson
New member
I disagree with all three concepts though I use all three.
A skimmer is not used for removing phosphates and nitrates??? Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s used to remove proteins... you know dookie! Sure, if you put half your water through a skimmer every hour it will get a lot of it out...but, some call that a water change. If you mean to tell me you donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t do water changes, you have the same mineral abundance, and no bad stuff on your bottom glass with zero nitrates and phosphates. I will have to call that for what it is; lying.
To remove nitrogen, phosphates, organics, and inorganics from the DSB Dr. Shimek should have used rooted plants. For those that do not know the first # on fertilizer is dissolved nitrogen, the second# is phosphates.
The DSB and plenum while commonly conceptualize with one another are not the same thing! A DSB uses bacteria and creatures (fauna mainly) to break down and dissolve organics. The plenum use a fluidized sand bed to detoxify ammonia and nitrites. Both have pros and cons the largest is the inorganic waste... metals and toxins. And there overall life span. To increase the life span of the DSB you should utilize rooted plants. To increase the life span of the plenum you should use a siphon of the fluidized sand bed (The CPW) which will also remove toxins.
Though I love the concept of the CPW on itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s initial merits I reaffirm my belief that ldrhawke is siphoning far to often which may lead to eventual disaster.
My concept utilize the good of all the above. In my main tank I utilize a DSB. Which creates a natural environment for my Fighting Conchs and other snails, my Yellow Coris Wrasse that hides in the sand, and my rooted plants.
My system has decent water circulation; excess waste is either in my overflow boxes at the bottom or proceeding the bubble trap in the sump which accumulates in a pen. All 3 places it can be vacuumed out.
I utilize the plenum with a siphon in the refugium for several reasons:
1.) I can get a siphon pump to it
2.) That where most of the nitrates get sucked is into the sump.
3.) It has to have a lower circulation so the nitrates can settle into the sand bed
A skimmer is not used for removing phosphates and nitrates??? Itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s used to remove proteins... you know dookie! Sure, if you put half your water through a skimmer every hour it will get a lot of it out...but, some call that a water change. If you mean to tell me you donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t do water changes, you have the same mineral abundance, and no bad stuff on your bottom glass with zero nitrates and phosphates. I will have to call that for what it is; lying.
To remove nitrogen, phosphates, organics, and inorganics from the DSB Dr. Shimek should have used rooted plants. For those that do not know the first # on fertilizer is dissolved nitrogen, the second# is phosphates.
The DSB and plenum while commonly conceptualize with one another are not the same thing! A DSB uses bacteria and creatures (fauna mainly) to break down and dissolve organics. The plenum use a fluidized sand bed to detoxify ammonia and nitrites. Both have pros and cons the largest is the inorganic waste... metals and toxins. And there overall life span. To increase the life span of the DSB you should utilize rooted plants. To increase the life span of the plenum you should use a siphon of the fluidized sand bed (The CPW) which will also remove toxins.
Though I love the concept of the CPW on itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s initial merits I reaffirm my belief that ldrhawke is siphoning far to often which may lead to eventual disaster.
My concept utilize the good of all the above. In my main tank I utilize a DSB. Which creates a natural environment for my Fighting Conchs and other snails, my Yellow Coris Wrasse that hides in the sand, and my rooted plants.
My system has decent water circulation; excess waste is either in my overflow boxes at the bottom or proceeding the bubble trap in the sump which accumulates in a pen. All 3 places it can be vacuumed out.
I utilize the plenum with a siphon in the refugium for several reasons:
1.) I can get a siphon pump to it
2.) That where most of the nitrates get sucked is into the sump.
3.) It has to have a lower circulation so the nitrates can settle into the sand bed
Jerel,
And, bare bottoms do what bare bottoms do.........and mama says, life is like a box of chocolates.
The problem in debating with you is that you have been around forever and done it all.....RC Tank of the Month
As I said, "there is no single answer to succeed in doing that other than attention to what you are doing and understanding what is happening". Nice tank.
And, bare bottoms do what bare bottoms do.........and mama says, life is like a box of chocolates.
The problem in debating with you is that you have been around forever and done it all.....RC Tank of the Month As I said, "there is no single answer to succeed in doing that other than attention to what you are doing and understanding what is happening". Nice tank.
gregt
Premium Member
All I know is I now have a tank twice as big as my last one with the sandbed, it looks twice as good, and I'm spending half the time keeping it looking that way. For the first time ever I'm spending less time working on my tank than I am enjoying it.
I'm gonna keep flushing my toilet.
I'm gonna keep flushing my toilet.
brian crosson said:
And that is..........? Please expand on your doomes day theory.
If you've been following my posts; I have expanded my testing, still looking for the Holy Grail, by continuously rapid drip draining through the CPW system into a denitrification filter with the return to the tank. Zero measureable nitrates and phosphates are now being returned to tank. Regular flushing water changes still are done through the CPW system. Nitrogen gas bubbles fill the substrate can be seen in the substrate against the front plexi-glass from top to bottom .
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brian crosson
New member
Some strands of bacteria are harder to kill then others. Personally, I have never taken microbiology so I am stupid on the subject. But, It seems that your going to pull something into the plenum's fluidized sand bed that will disagree with the nitrobacter and when it's there you may find it difficult to get out?
Again, I don't disagree with the idealism though. I fill you to be far more educatated on your ideal then I?
Again, I don't disagree with the idealism though. I fill you to be far more educatated on your ideal then I?
Bomber
10 & Over Club
ldrhawke said:Jerel,
And, bare bottoms do what bare bottoms do.........and mama says, life is like a box of chocolates.
As I said, "there is no single answer to succeed in doing that other than attention to what you are doing and understanding what is happening". Nice tank.
and that's the good part about BB's. You're not trying to process anything, you're just removing it before it becomes a problem.
You're right, there is no single answer. I also keep tanks with sand bottoms at work. I just don't have the time do what it takes to maintain one at home.
tgunn
Active member
Critters in CPW?
Critters in CPW?
I've read this entire thread through from the start and followed most of what has been said. A very interesting system you've proposed ldrhawke; I'll be keeping an eye on this thread as I plan out my future reef tank and make decisions on what filtration methodology to employ.
The one question I have regarding CPW is with the microfauna, or "critters" that are typical of a DSB.
Does anyone out there using CPW have any comments on the microfauna present in the CPW enabled DSB? Has the use of the CPW system reduced the amount of critters? Or are they not present at all?
Just curious; because it's my understanding that the critters in a DSB tend to provide both circulation (not an issue with CPW) and also a food source for the tank in general.
Thanks!
Tyler
Critters in CPW?
I've read this entire thread through from the start and followed most of what has been said. A very interesting system you've proposed ldrhawke; I'll be keeping an eye on this thread as I plan out my future reef tank and make decisions on what filtration methodology to employ.
The one question I have regarding CPW is with the microfauna, or "critters" that are typical of a DSB.
Does anyone out there using CPW have any comments on the microfauna present in the CPW enabled DSB? Has the use of the CPW system reduced the amount of critters? Or are they not present at all?
Just curious; because it's my understanding that the critters in a DSB tend to provide both circulation (not an issue with CPW) and also a food source for the tank in general.
Thanks!
Tyler
brian crosson
New member
my cpw is in the sump which is where I like to thin most critters go (fauna). It would definetely cause a decrease in worms at least in mine I did afterall use crush coral for the first two inches and sand for the next 2.
I don't personally think of it as a DSB though again LDRhawke is the expert but it is a plenum and those concepts are different!
I don't personally think of it as a DSB though again LDRhawke is the expert but it is a plenum and those concepts are different!
BigDaddy said:
No, but my web site has a picture of the plenum piping. Just picture wrapping the piping like it was being gift wrapped. I cut a piece of drainage cloth that was large enough to wrap around it twice. I cut a small hole near the center to stick the rise pipe through and wrapped it and folded the sides under like I was wrapping it up to mail it. The folds went on the bottom and I placed it into the tank.
One additional thing I did. I placed loose pieces of pvc pipe in the space between the plenum piping runs to keep the weight of the sand collapsing totally around the plenum piping, before wrapping it in the drainage cloth.
