DSB idea

jlfnjlf

New member
I am about to completely scratch the idea of a DSB in my 100g, but before I do I had an idea. As I understand it the major concern with a DSB is stagnant sand clumping and becoming a source of pollutants.

What if I developed an up-flow system where I forced water up through the sand? I have a couple of undergravle filter plates I pulled from my FW tank then I could simply pump water down under the filter plate.

Am I insane or does this seem like a reasonable concept?

Thank you in advance for your honest feedback.

John
 
The way I understand it, and a couple of theory I have.......

The main theory and why the DSB system works is that it uses anerobic (without oxygen) bacteria to decompose the organic material (detitrus). By forcing water or air up or out would negate this anerobic enviroment......

Just where it becomes anerobic (how deep) has been under debate, some say as little as 5mm if I remember right.

A DSB creates a "nitrate factory" where nutrients are slowly "eaten" and processed. This is a slow yet constant process that as they DSB matures become more productive. Thus because of this slow constant process there is alway "x" amount of nutrients in the water. As we know nutrients contribute to coloration and growth, and SPS are extremly finicky about this level. The nitrates are controlled by water changes.

Conversly on the other side of the spectrum, and how I have come to think of it as, the Barebottom method takes out that "x" amount of nutrients out of the equation which creates a void where the only nutrients that are hopefully present are filtered out by overskimming and filtersocks before it has a chance to break down and be taken in by the system. The benifit of this is "void" can be filled again by feeding more and dose more phyto so those "x" level of nutients are used in growth producing materials....nitrates in theory will not exist. In short is 100% is your total nutrients and your feedings and in water nutrients are 70% and the DSB is 30%.....by removing the DSB, 100% of your total disolved nutrients is going to feeding, hence growth....and you can adjust that level if needed if browing occurs.

But it has been debated that a small remote sand bed adds stability to the system of a BB tank and allows "some" contant nutrients to remain in the system rather than some, none, some, none pendullum. I found this to be true when switching to BB and have added a SMALL SSB to combat this.....with excellent results.....my colors stabilized and are great all around.

The other option is the SSB, which is the option I prefer. Has the looks of the sand bed if you don't like the BB look, and if the 5mm is correct has the possibility of creating an anerobic zone without the deep reserves of much that be lost inches down resembling oil/gas reserves in a couple of years.

But the main problems that you asked about with the DSB is clumping due to calcification of the sand bed which happens from following the rule of never stirring you sand bed or having gobies or cucs as the DSB rule book states. I don't agreee with that though, I say stir it up and constantly release those materials rather than waiting for a rock rescape or a tank move to upset a "pocket" and cause a tank crash........ask builderguy about that one........ this accumulation of materials that after time is what people call a "ticking time bomb" as some say, and I agree with.

However, nothing is for certain, and people have been going between the three types for years.........

I think a DSB is more suited for a Softie and LPS tank because they do better and thrive in nutrient rich enviroments, and BB if not SSB for SPS tanks......for mixed I say SSB.......which is yours tank?
 
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What you described would not function as a DSB. It would be a reverse undergravel filter. I just set up one of these for a fish only system. If you're forcing water up through the substrate you're introducing oxygen which will essentially give you the same function as a fluidized bed filter, it will break down ammonia and nitrite, but not nitrate.
 
I think you should go with a SSB.....2 inch max.......and get a large skimmer and sock.......you can overfeed that way compared to a DSB where feeding the same amount "may" brown out the SPS...

Mixed tanks are challenging and you need to be a "jack of all trades" and know what can go with what and can't........

But look really cool is acomplished......a balancing act is how I would describe it.
 
Live rock is better than a DSB in my opinion. If you have a good skimmer, and wash your filter sock(s) regularly, the live rock should be able to break down nitrates fast enough that you will never see them on a test kit.

I tried BB for a while, and got bored of the look, so I'm going back to a fine sand substrate of ~2-3".
 
agreed.......thats what I do and makes for a very simple/straight forward system that way, (and trouble free), up until going BB thats what model mine was........The coralline is covering the bottom of mine now, algae is minimal....heck I can't even grow cheato, its shrinking day by day, not enough in the water to get it to grow, Because of that I am able to feed daily now and my growth rate has increased, which is never a bad thing.....I don't notice the looks anymore, looks like more purple rock....just a little flatter. Rather like it that way....different from all the rest.
 
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Tristan, you always seem to chime in before I can on these "technical" threads :)

Yea John, the undergravel idea won't work because it will negate the fundamental mechanism that makes a DSB work.. that being the anerobic area (as Dots pointed out). There are several threads in a couple of the forums about this, do a quick search and you will find an over abundance of information :)

Also try looking into a remote DSB.. it seems that the long raceway sumps/fuges with a DSB are coming back "into style". Mermaid aquarium set one up not too long ago :

http://www.mermaidaquarium.com/bph.htm

and click on the far right thumbnail.

Cheers and good luck :)
 
Haha sorry. I'll revert to lurking!! Just kidding. I try to help out, but it's good to know I've got someone checking my arithmetic! Haha.. thankfully I haven't gotten anything blatantly wrong yet

Tom: Is that a DSB on the right in that photo? It's really hard to tell. Cool looking setup though! I love seeing new setups that are inovative, proffessional, and a clean build.
 
Thank you all for the valuable feedback.

I have an 18x24 area in my sump that will accommodate a 4-6 inch DSB (need room for Cheato). I think I will stick with about 2 inches of sand in the main tank.

I have been hording live sand for some time, so I will have about 60 pounds available soon. I would be willing to trade sand for drygoods or live rock. I do not have any room fore more coral in my current tank at this time.

John
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8960520#post8960520 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pepe.king.prawn
Nevermind!!! I see the deep sand bed part! WOAH!

Yea, that is a monster sand bed :D, I think MAx told me it had several hundred pounds of sand (500# comes to mind for some reason now).

The filtration runs the 2 210g "book ends" (as Dots calls them :))
 
First, I don't have much experience with DSBs, although I have made one on my new tank since I plan to keep more LPS and softies and lagoon-type species. My previous tanks I had, several years ago, had an SSB made of silica sand (remember that stuff, and, ugh, dolomite??).
I did find an interesting thread that was started awhile back about the remote "DSB in a bucket", but I can't get into the search feature now. It looks like an interesting alternative for nitrate removal, if that's one of your goals. I think it basically involved a 8-12" deep (I could be wrong...) aragonite bed that was kept in the dark with enough flow to keep detritus from settling out. If I had room under my stand, I'd try one. Haven't convinced the wife yet to let me run pipes through the wall into the sun room...
 
John,

What you have described is one of the ways reef tanks were being set up in the early to mid 90s. There are pros & cons to it. A reverse flow undergravel filter tends to not build up nitrates as fast as a regular direction flow, but some think there will be too much O2 in the sand for anaerobic activity. I have not found a study done to prove it.

Your thought process is scientifically sound, and therefore I am sure you will figure out a good solution. For an interesting and (hopefully) informative discussion, try a google search on "Jaubert system". The discussion and controversy spans a couple of decades!
 
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