Dsb's work, what makes them work best?

[barryhc]

Hi folks, let's take a crack at this. We all know that many DSB's work very well. We also know that some have "crashed".

Let's start a discussion about the benefit's of DSB's, along with acknowledging some disadvantages or difficulties that have occured while operating some of them.

No system is a "magic bullet" that negates, or necessarily opposes the functionality of other systems, or support systems, and this certainly includes Deep Sand Beds.

So let's include the use of various "support systems" that are, and can be used in conjunction with a deep sand bed.

Also, all reef systems recieve some kind of maintanence, so let's include what kind of maintanence is performed, and how systems can be operated with less maintnence requirement.

There has been a lot of discussion about Phosphate problems associated with Deep Sand Beds, and that may be true in some instances, and not in others. So this topic is fair game as well.

Let's find out how it occurs, when it does, and why it does, and find out how to reduce it's signifiance, or eliminate it as a problem.

This thread is being started in order to have a discussion on these topics, and how to maintain or improve the functionality of Deep Sand Beds. It is not the place for debate.

This thread is specificly not here to offer a new venue for the BB VS DSB debate, and that type of posting is exceedingly unwelcome.

Let's learn as much as we can about the fuctionality of deep sand beds, and put it to the best use.

Thanks All, and let's enjoy our happy new year!

> barryhc

 

[npaden]

I don't really know that there are that many differences between running a successful tank regardless of what the substrate choice is.

IMO you need to have a handle on nutrient import vs. nutrient export. I choose to handle nutrient export through a large skimmer and a large refugium with macro algae.

I also think good water flow is often overlooked and is possible if planned properly whether you are running a DSB or BB. I have 15,000 gph of flow in my DSB tank.

I'm not sure about your thread title though, if you aren't trying to start a debate your thread title seems to say they are the best and that almost invites a debate.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6451957#post6451957 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by npaden
I don't really know that there are that many differences between running a successful tank regardless of what the substrate choice is.

IMO you need to have a handle on nutrient import vs. nutrient export. I choose to handle nutrient export through a large skimmer and a large refugium with macro algae.

I also think good water flow is often overlooked and is possible if planned properly whether you are running a DSB or BB. I have 15,000 gph of flow in my DSB tank.

I'm not sure about your thread title though, if you aren't trying to start a debate your thread title seems to say they are the best and that almost invites a debate.

FWIW, Nathan

I have to particularly agree with everything that you say here techincaly.

It wasn't intended that way, and you should know that from reading the initial post, but I will concede that it should have been titled "How do we make them work better than they do currently and the pitfalls that some people have experienced?"

That seems to be a bit too long.

I don't have a side, although I like Sand beds for the look and for the animals that live in them.

The first post remains as self-explanatory.

Thanks Nathan, I hope it isn't taken that way. > barryhc

 

[npaden]

How about, "DSB tips and tricks from the experienced"

I agree whole heartedly about sandbeds for the looks and the animals that live in them. I have several wrasses that sleep by burying themselves in the sand. Also I have a M. Dorensis (Long Tentacled Anemone) that has it's foot firmly attached to the bottom of the glass in my tank in an area where the sand is 8" deep.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[Doug]

One of the issues that I had when I tried to use a DSB was the lack of life in the sandbed. Even after 6 months, there was very little critter life.

I think my problem came from using already cured live rock that had been in that same tank for a long time. I would guess that if I had used uncured rock or maybe seeded the sandbed with a "critter kit", it might have been successful. I ended up with what looked like six inches of dead sand and a very serious cyano bloom.

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6452122#post6452122 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by npaden
How about, "DSB tips and tricks from the experienced"

I agree whole heartedly about sandbeds for the looks and the animals that live in them. I have several wrasses that sleep by burying themselves in the sand. Also I have a M. Dorensis (Long Tentacled Anemone) that has it's foot firmly attached to the bottom of the glass in my tank in an area where the sand is 8" deep.

FWIW, Nathan

Not bad Nathan. Ck. your PM.

> barryhc

 

[barryhc]

I have run into a partially similar situation Doug. I basicly cured the 2nd and larger batch of live rock right in the display tank, and I had no problems at all with algae, or with cyano, but that was because of an abundance of crabs and snails before the live rock was put in.

I'm at 11 mos. and have never had any problem with cyano, or algae, and I don't stir, or vacuum, or siphon, because I have critters that take care of that. I also don't have much of that wanted "fauna" in the sand bed for the same reason.

I have been told that the hermit crabs are really "tough" on the sand bed "fauna", but I have brittle stars, peppermint shrimp, and cucumber as well, and I really don't know enough about "fauna-predation" to correct this yet.

> barryhc

 

[joefish]

I want to aproach this as a learning experience not a confrontation , I hope it works out that way .


I'll be a guinie pig here .My DSB failed not crashed just failed . I want to know why ?

The tank is a 120 , mak4 return with 6 - 1200 maxi jets on a wave maker . The skimmer was a Euro-reef CS 8-2 . I ran carbon and phosban ,that I changed out once a month . Weelky 10% water changes .I had a refugium with assorted maco algaes and a 7"DSB and live rock .

The sand used was southdown the tank had 5" and the refugium had 7".

The total water was 205 gallons minus the area sand and rock took up .

The sand was white and healthy looking while the rocks were covered in a brown turf algae .

I blew the rocks clean three a times a week .

Here's a picture to help with refernces

I am not trying to prove a point . I will answer all questions honostly no matter how bad I look .

I want to know how come some DSB tanks fail and others flourish.

 

[SDguy]

Hey Barry,

I think you also may have to define what one considers a disfunctional, or not optimal, DSB. What is a crash? Is cyano the defining organism? Algae in general? Coral death? Which kinds...acros, LPS, all?

I have a 3+ year DSB. Only maintenance is by my pistol shrimp, who probably makes it a marginal DSB at best, with such massive excavations I have algae (halimeda, coralline) and 3 of 4 acros have died. Is this a crash? Everything else is absolutely flourishing. I blame allelopathy and heavy anthia feedings more than my DSB. So I think my DSB is working fine. An SPS keeper would probably dissagree.

Your thought?

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6452372#post6452372 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Hey Barry,

I think you also may have to define what one considers a disfunctional, or not optimal, DSB. What is a crash? Is cyano the defining organism? Algae in general? Coral death? Which kinds...acros, LPS, all?

I have a 3+ year DSB. Only maintenance is by my pistol shrimp, who probably makes it a marginal DSB at best, with such massive excavations I have algae (halimeda, coralline) and 3 of 4 acros have died. Is this a crash? Everything else is absolutely flourishing. I blame allelopathy and heavy anthia feedings more than my DSB. So I think my DSB is working fine. An SPS keeper would probably dissagree.

Your thought?

Well, that is an exceedingly good point, and I meant to offer up in the original post, that such definition should be brought up, and then bantied about until we had something to refer to, but I just forgot, and thanks for bringing it up.

Well we know that some SPS will not tolerate even "fairly low" concentrations of nutrients, and so I would call this an inappropriate matching of system and animal. It would help to know which species have more difficulty, and those that are more tolerant.

So there is one, "Inappropriate". As far as I know, this is primarily relative to some SPS, and also to some Dendros, there may be other instances. This would include "Not Optimal".

Then there would be "Dysfunctional", This might apply to JoeFish's tank, I'm not sure. We might also call this "Failed". It certainly needs some type of description. It sounds like everything is dying or in "decline".

Then there is the "crash". I think that this applies to "Uncontrollable Algae".

Let's have people chime in here, ans we will try to put together good definitions.

Joe, please tell us more about the failure. The picture sure looks nice.

Thanks > barryhc

 

[SDguy]

And with Joe's tank, which is mostly SPS from what I can see, why was the algae bad? Keeping the corals from growing? From spreading on the rocks? Actually invading the skeletal structure of the coral? I'm anxious to hear more Joe

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6452311#post6452311 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by joefish

I want to know how come some DSB tanks fail and others flourish.

ME TOO!!!

Tell us a little more about the failure, and how we might deal with these definitions.

I have not had a failure, but some people have, and it can't be dealt with unless the bad experiences are considered as well.

Thanks JoeFish! > barryhc

 

[npaden]

I guess my 4 1/2 year old high flow SPS dominated DSB tank is inappropriate then?

 

[J_Geisinger000]

hey npade!!!

how are you getting that much flow without creating a sand storm?

Im getting ready to start an sps only tank and I want a sandbed but was thinking of going bb because of the amount of flow I will have

 

[Frisco]

The pump tipped the balance!!!

 

[PUGroyale]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6452701#post6452701 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by npaden
I guess my 4 1/2 year old high flow SPS dominated DSB tank is inappropriate then?

Appropriate??? Who cares :lol: It's stunning :thumbsup: Love to see some closer pics.

I wasn't going to "post" in this thread because "it seems" some of "these" are just "started" to "stir" things up ...But that's a great looking tank.

 

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6452701#post6452701 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by npaden
I guess my 4 1/2 year old high flow SPS dominated DSB tank is inappropriate then?

Excellent point. I don't think we should use the term inappropriate. It suggests an opinion, no actual happening or event (ie crash, algal bloom, STN, etc.)

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6452701#post6452701 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by npaden
I guess my 4 1/2 year old high flow SPS dominated DSB tank is inappropriate then?

Only if it is having a problem, and it certainly does not seem to be having a problem. Beautiful tank!!

I really like the deeper "ends". Can you tell us about your substrate?

> barryhc

 

[Airman]

Joe,
How did your tank fail? Algae growing on rock is natural.

Npaden,

How big is that clam in the middle?

 

[kbmdale]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6452621#post6452621 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc


Then there is the "crash". I think that this applies to "Uncontrollable Algae".


Thanks > barryhc

but that may or may not have anything to do with the dsb...there is no way to know, and the sand seems to be the easiest thing to blame...