Editable antibiotic

[Steve_B]

Editable antibiotic

I don’t what to dose the fish only/no live rock tank. Its bacterial, did the formalin and fresh water dips already. As you can see it has HLLE, which I COMPLETELY cured, reversed, and regenerated by introducing sponge into it’s diet. I think the sponge food is not working here because it is still fighting off this problem. This condition has been like this shortly after I got it about a year ago.
Any suggestions?

 

[sugartooth]

Gel-Tek I believe comes in diff. types of antibiotic additive to the foods. I've seen them at Petsmarts and Pet Co's locally.

 

[Steve_B]

Re: Editable antibiotic

Thank you sugartooth, I'm going to see how this shakes out.
maybe it is just scaring, which I thought up this morning

I started out with copper treating the entire tank. I have never used anything besides copper and hypo until now. The tank is run with a wet dry filter that pumps the water through 2 Gorman Rupp 1,500 GPH each pumps, into large ocean clear 25 micron pleated filters with carbon and 3 power heads in the tank for the best circulation. Yes old school, but it has always worked for me.
I have never seen a disease anything like this in all of the years I have been keeping S/W fish, since 1976. I have gone for years at a time with no deaths, no disease, thus I basically maintain almost the same setup I have always used. A magnum and U/G filters until the wet/dry.

There are areas that the water is not as turbulent, but they prefer the high moving places.

All of the water parameters are just about perfect because of the probably (who knows) maybe at least 500% RODI water changes in the past year. The closest to perfect water I make, using Instant Ocean with buffer, because they claim it will make 8.3 PH, but it is actually in the 7s, so I question the amount of trace elements contained. Thus I also add Julian Sprung¡¦s (the man) trace elements as well to the new water. Julian says his formula will not exceed sufficient present trace elements and will bring either low or non existent trace elements into line. Up until this last year have I never used RODI water, just tap, or supplements like Julian sells. I am clutching at straws here. I have now done the Formalin baths outlined EXACTLY in Terry Bs article.
The Formilan baths seemed to be ineffective In the past year I have used Prazipro, copper, Furan-2 and Furanase.

2 days ago I gave it a 3 minute fresh water bath. 3 minutes, the thing is tough as nails.
The tank has Prazipro in it now, after the fresh water bath. My thinking is that if it is flukes or any other trematodes their wont be a cross infestation and maybe Prazipro won¡¦t knock out these things, but may prevent cross infection.
This Queen displays perfect behavior now. No hiding, lose of appetite, appearance of trying to rid something on its scales. It just looks like it is infected.
I¡¦m thinking that maybe this is scar tissue, including the HLLE and will begin to heal now.
If not, I¡¦ll try some other snake oil, in the very unlikely event that this malady may be eradicated.
Maybe somebody will recommend a bleach bath, who knows with this nightmareÆ'º

BTW, the tank is WAY under stocked.
I feed Sponge formula, formula 1 and 2. Spirulina and OSI Marine pellets, which are boiled and allowed to soak up the Selcon or Vita Chem afterwards.

So, my question is;
Has anybody seen this, and if so, is my protocol correct?

 

[Steve_B]

Editable antibiotic

sorry, double post

 

[Steve_B]

Re: Editable antibiotic
Thank you sugartooth, I'm going to see how this shakes out.
maybe it is just scaring, which I thought up this morning

I started out with copper treating the entire tank. I have never used anything besides copper and hypo until now. The tank is run with a wet dry filter that pumps the water through 2 Gorman Rupp 1,500 GPH each pumps, into large ocean clear 25 micron pleated filters with carbon and 3 power heads in the tank for the best circulation. Yes old school, but it has always worked for me.
I have never seen a disease anything like this in all of the years I have been keeping S/W fish, since 1976. I have gone for years at a time with no deaths, no disease, thus I basically maintain almost the same setup I have always used. A magnum and U/G filters until the wet/dry.

There are areas that the water is not as turbulent, but they prefer the high moving places.


All of the water parameters are just about perfect because of the probably (who knows) maybe at least 500% RODI water changes in the past year. The closest to perfect water I make, using Instant Ocean with buffer, because they claim it will make 8.3 PH, but it is actually in the 7s, so I question the amount of trace elements contained. Thus I also add Julian Sprung¡¦s (the man) trace elements as well to the new water. Julian says his formula will not exceed sufficient present trace elements and will bring either low or non existent trace elements into line. Up until this last year have I never used RODI water, just tap, or supplements like Julian sells. I am clutching at straws here. I have now done the Formalin baths outlined EXACTLY in Terry Bs article.
The Formilan baths seemed to be ineffective In the past year I have used Prazipro, copper, uran-2 and Furanase.

2 days ago I gave it a 3 minute fresh water bath. 3 minutes, the thing is tough as nails.
The tank has Prazipro in it now, after the fresh water bath. My thinking is that if it is flukes or any other trematodes their wont be a cross infestation and maybe Prazipro won¡¦t knock out these things, but may prevent cross infection.
This Queen displays perfect behavior now. No hiding, lose of appetite, appearance of trying to rid something on its scales. It just looks like it is infected.
I¡¦m thinking that maybe this is scar tissue, including the HLLE and will begin to heal now.
If not, I¡¦ll try some other snake oil, in the very unlikely event that this malady may be eradicated.
Maybe somebody will recommend a bleach bath, who knows with this nightmareÆ'º

BTW, the tank is WAY under stocked.
I feed Sponge formula, formula 1 and 2. Spirulina and OSI Marine pellets, which are boiled and allowed to soak up the Selcon or Vita Chem afterwards.

So, my question is;
Has anybody seen this, and if so, is my protocol correct?

 

[Kolognekoral]

Steve, are you checking for nitrates and PO4? Also, I have recently read that HLLE may be connected to fine carbon dust clogging the pores of the lateral line. Do you rinse your carbon well before use?

What I find strange about this malady is that it can reverse itself when the fish is placed into a different aquarium. I have seen tangs recover in a few weeks after being transfered to new quarters. it is NOT contagious! Apparently, it is symptomatic and not caused directly by a pathogen, rather pathogens may get involved without being tha actual cause.

Although diet is always an important factor in maintaining healthy fish, I doubt it is a main cause of HLLE. I believe it is a husbandry related illness. Just exactly what factors contribute to it are still unclear. I would not recommend freshwater baths, as the fish is already stressed and it may retard healing due to the difference in osmotic pressure. Judging from what you have mentioned, I think the next step is wait and be patient.

 

[kevin2000]

My 02

As far as "edible antibiotic" .. check out the Seachem webside under medications and take a look at "focus".

Not sure of the fish illness .. looks a bit like HLLE, nutrition, stress issue. If so there is no magic bullet med and close attention to water quality and a variety of healthy/nutiritonal foods may help. As I recall marineaquariumadvice.com has good articles on food nutrition as well as HLLE .. might help.

Good luck.

 

[Steve_B]

"Steve, are you checking for nitrates and PO4? Also, I have recently read that HLLE may be connected to fine carbon dust clogging the pores of the lateral line. Do you rinse your carbon well before use?"


Thanks for the response Kolognekoral

I forgot to mention, I have turned HLLE completely around as well. I added sponge to the diet and the erosion was gone, the color and tissue grew back and looked perfect

I do rinse the carbon well, but I can never make it perfectly clear. What is PO4?
Yes I do check for nitrates, and they are around 5.

The reason the nitrates are so low is that I'm making a lot of water changes in order to maintain optimal water conditions.
Another reason was to pull that Prazipro when its treatment was over. The “PrazaproTreatment” means nothing to kill parasites in my opinion. If you read the bottle it says "Treats Diseases & Conditions Caused By"
To me that is saying “conditions caused by", not to kill the actual parasite.

That doesn't matter anyway, because any flukes would have been seen falling off right away in the bathes. I did the 3 Formilan baths because I thought it would eradicate any parasites, but it had no effect. The fresh water dip was several days later, just to make certain it was not flukes, and the formalin baths should have knocked them out anyway.

Now I’m thinking that a bacterial infection may not be seen or even harmful to the other tank mates, they may only be carriers.

Sorry, up front I said Copper and hypo only, I forgot about using the baths. I have done freshwater baths in the past and the flukes just start falling off very quickly.
I specifically got the RODI unit for maximum water quality. Like I said earlier, my water changes have been quite a lot this past year. I have also read that carbon dust can cause HLLE, so I'm going to discontinue using it for a while and see what happens. I also have a ground probe, which is questionable having any effect in my experience.

Now the other condition can not be attributed to HLLE. I’m not going to do anymore baths, as I believe this is a bacterial problem. That being said, I am leaning towards dosing the entire tank with Furan 2, which claims to treat both Gram negative and positive bacterial infections. In that way, if there are any other fish that may be infected, but not show the signs, will be treated as well.

My wife just said the same thing. “Just leave them alone and see how it goes. Stop this every other day stuff”
If I do a Furan-2 treatment it wouldn’t be for a while. This condition is just ugly and has been going on for so long, what’s while longer. Even with all of this going on, it has grown from maybe 6” to 8” at this point. I keep reading about this Gluten stuff. Does anybody know what it does and where to get it?
Anyway, thanks for all of the ideas!
I gave up looking for responses after it ended up on the 3rd or 4th page. So I pull it up today and there it is!

 

[sugartooth]

As I understand, flukes would come off in freshwater and not formalin.

But since you did both, you would have knocked off anything hanging onto this guy. So at the very least, he should feel much better. You would also be able to see what the problem is. Since he doesn't seem better. Most likely a health issue, or something picking on him?

I believe vitachem is good for HLLE. If it is scarring, you may stop it from getting worse, and perhaps the scars may never heal, but he will be okay.

I'm not sure about boiling anything. Usually, I let frozen or dried foods soak up vitachem or selcon for about 30 minutes before feeding.

Not sure about gluten. But I give beta glucan to all new or stressed out fish. It helps boost the immune system. I get it from the health food store. Make sure you get the 1,3 chain and not 2,6. The 1,3 linkage is the active one.

Furan-2 or Metronidazole are good products, but only use in a hospital tank. I would think a bacterial infection would be more reddish looking instead of white?

 

[Kolognekoral]

Steve,

First, PO4 is phosphate. This can be a major problem for reef aquariums, but is rarely tested for fish only tanks. Over a level of 1.0ppm it can be dangerous for fish. With corals one attempts to maintain it under 0.02ppm, which is much lower. The same with NO3 (nitrates), they should not be over 10ppm for fish and are better under 5ppm. Under 1ppm is, also, not good, as this means the system is starved.

As I mentioned earlier (and your wife seems to agree ), playing the waiting game is the trick. The fish does look on the way to recovery, as there are no red lesions of further signs of an infection. Now that you have the diet rounded out, you should see slow healing. From what I have seen by doctor fish, specifically Z. desjardinii and Z. veliferum, it will take some months until the wounds are well healed. Often there is a permanent scar.

Do you have any live rock in the aquarium? All my angels have really appreciated these and remained healthy. I do believe, even in fish-only tanks, live rocks are a good investment to help increase the biodiversity. They do not enjoy antibiotics, however.

Water changes do not need to be large and often! I find 5% per week to be best. Some go a bit higher, but over 10% is asking for problems. Every water change stresses the inhabitants. The large and oftener the change, the more stress the animals experience. Not to take away from the positive effects, but more is not better, unless one has a water quality problem. Technically speaking, with a good skimmer and quality salt mix, one can go for months without any water change, if there are no invertibrates involved.

Vitamin supplements are something to consider. I feed lots of algaes, plus various protien-rich foods, plus an occaisional supplement. Shouldn't be overdone, but this help cover any possible dietary deficiencies.

Another hint. If you think bacteria is a problem, dose some hydrogen peroxide to the water. It will raise the oxygen level as well as kill any bacteria or other organics it comes into contact with. It is harmless for most tank inhabitants, although anemonies can react by overinflating. They do recover in my experience. I dose about 2 tablespoons per 100 gallons using 3% H2O2. It will kill freeswimming protozoans, as well. One finds it at the drug store.

 

[Steve_B]

My P04 is .6mg/l
I have no idea how that translates to PPM

 

[Steve_B]

Regarding the boiling of the food, it’s not for any kind of absorption of additives. Some of it floats and goes into my overflow and some is too hard and they just won’t eat it. Any smaller pellets are just ignored by these big fish. The pellets I boil are OSI medium size marine pellets and OSI medium size spirulina pellets. The spirulina is mixed in with Angel formula and frozen. The Queen won’t even look at Angel formula and spirulina is its favorite food. It will only eat the sponge melted in with the OSI Spurlina pellets. That’s the way I was able to cure one a few years back. I cannot find any other food that contains sponge. I mean, just try to squish it up when it thaws, its like spongy sponge. I can see why it won’t eat it.
Oh, I forgot to mention they are also fed frozen formula 1 and 2, as if that makes a difference.

 

[Kolognekoral]

Ppm and mgl are the same thing. Gets confusing as 'mil' is not million, rather 1000, as it comes from latin 'mille', which is thousand. The reference amount is always litre for mgl, but ppm can be applied to any reference quantity, such as gallon, quart, etc. It is a relative comparison. Anyway, your PO4 is fine!

Have you tried mixing Nori or Wakame algae with the spirulina? Could be another good food source. I have found a frozen food in Europe, and since then make my own, which has various clams, squid, shrimps and fish mixed with algaes and my fish really love it. I make my own version with vitamins and gelatine. Many butterflies are particularly attracted to it, but everyone seems to love it.

Sounds like you are giving your fish the best possible selection. As you noticed, they are like kids and don't always want tot eat whats good for 'em!

 

[Steve_B]

THIS ISN’T YELLING, I JUST DON’T HAVE THE TIME TO WRITE THIS THING PROPERLY. I TRIED TO MAKE THIS ENTIRE TOPIC SIMPLE AND IT IS GETTING WAY TO COMPLICATED.
THE QUEEN NOW HAS A PERFECT APPETITE, AND BEHAVIOR. JUST THE SLIMY PATCHS AND FACIAL EROSION THAT COULD BE AN INFECTION THAT MAKES IT SUSTIBLE AFTER THE PARASITE TREATMENT.
I WANT TO TREAT THE ENTIRE TANK WITH FURAN BECAUSE THERE IS SOMETHING THAT ONLY ATTACKS ANGLES IN THEIR. (THE HELL HOLE) TANK.

THIS IS HOW IT ALL BEGAN;

I HAD A SMALL BLUE TANG IN MY 70 GALLON TANK. IT WAS GOING TO GO INTO MY 225 AT SOME POINT. IT HAD A RAGGID TAIL HEAVY RESPERATION AND WAS DARTING AROUND MOST OF THE TIME. I CHALKED IT UP TO BEING PICKED ON AND SINCE I HAD IT FOR 3 MONTHS (NO ANGELS IN 70 GALLON) IT WAS ALREADY SAFE TO MOVE BECAUSE OF ALL THE CORAL IN THE 225 TO HIDE OUT.
AFTER IT WENT IN THE 225 ALL HE%L BROKE LOOSE. ALL OF MY ANGELS CAME DOWN WITH EITHER THE QUEENS PROBLEM OR JUST SHRIVILED AWAY FROM NOT EATING, OR DETERATION. MY FLAME ANGEL I HAD FOR YEARS DIED AS WELL. I TRIED PLACEING A CHEAP “TEST ANGEL” IN A FEW MONTHS LATER, AFTER ALL OF MY ANGELS WERE DEAD, TO SEE IF THE DISEASE WAS GONE, BUT NO LUCK. DEAD WITHIN AT MOST 2 MONTHS, MORE LIKELY 1. THE OTHER FISH ARE UNEFFECTED, JUST ANGELS.
WHAT DISEASE IS IN THERE THAT MAY ATTACK THE QUEEN AGAIN?

ONLY THE UGLY APPEARANCE IS THE PROBLEM WITH THE QUEEN NOW. SO WHAT ATTACKS ONLY ANGELS EXCLUSIVELY? THAT’S WHY I WANT TO RUN A GRAM POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE ANTIBIOTIC, THERE IS SOMETHING IN THERE.


BOTOM LINE;

THE BLUE TANG BROUGHT IT IN

YEA, AND IT HAD TO BE SOMETHING I CANNOT CURE. THAT LITTLE B%#@ard!

I NOW REALIZE THIS ENTIRE TOPIC WOULD HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN LESS CONFUSING IF TOLD THE WAY I DID HERE