Emergency, please help

[A30sguy]

I have had two captive bred seahorses for about a month now and recently (in the last week) added a third and they were all doing so perfect. I test the water every few days and do regular water changes. They were all eating great right from an eye dropper that i have been using.

The mistake I made was buying a strawberry slug about a month ago that I knew little about. I recently found out that its main diet is other sea slugs and it had slowly been getting smaller and not eating. I should have taken it out of the tank, but yesterday (saturday the 2nd) morning i woke up to find that the slug had been partly sucked into the filter intake and had died stuck there.

I quickly removed the slug, cleaned out the old filter cartridge and put in a new one. I also tested my water levels, which were still pretty good, and did a 50 percent water change.

My seahorses had been not moving much and refusing to eat all day. This morning, the two seahorses that i originally bought are dead, and the one remaining younger one is not looking good. They were all just breathing very hard and not moving much.

Please help me save the remaining seahorse. I think that they may have eaten some of the slug and gotten poisoned and I was trying to post on seahorse.org but with no luck.

Anything helps.

Ben

 

[Sk8r]

Run carbon.

 

[A30sguy]

Sory im a noob, please explain. Also Im almost positive its not gas bubble. They have no visible bubbles or swollen areas.

 

[TamiW]

He means to put carbon, or activated charcoal, in your filter to remove any toxins. If you don't have a filter that you can put carbon in, get something like a small internal filter, a power filter, or even a power head with a filter attachment and put carbon in there.

 

[A30sguy]

yea but there's carbon in my filter already and that would be to remove toxins in the tank and im not sure that there are any. Will that help?

 

[TamiW]

Your carbon my be exhausted. You'll want fresh carbon for this.

As for the toxin's, if the water quality is good, that's about the only thing left. Most nudibranchs are toxic, so its a good bet thats what it is.

To be safe, can you post your actual water parameters? Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph, temp, specific gravity?

 

[Sk8r]

Pull that carbon out and put fresh in.

If you need an emergency carbon filter, dump loose carbon into a woman's kneehigh nylon [not previously used] and leave it there for 1-3 days.

Carbon will remove many poisons from the water. Outside of that, if your local fish store is open, you might get some stuff called polyfilter and put it into the filter. Your filter should be changed if you have had a poisoning incident, as that is where the poison will tend to concentrate.

Test your water for ammonia: that is lethal, and it is a byproduct of nitrite/nitrate cycle and dead matter in the tank. THere are potions like Amquel that can help remove ammonia quickly.

 

[A30sguy]

Thanks for all the quick posts. My amonia is currently 0, my nitrates are between 5 and 10, my nitrites are at 0, and my ph is 8.2. I just put in new carbon in a new cartridge yesterday after i cleaned out the tank of the slug remains, should i be putting more than that in?

 

[JennyL]

You don't mention your ammonia reading but with two deaths already and a 3rd one in trouble, that tells me your tank is highly toxic at the moment.

You need to set up a hospital tank immediately. Be sure you match the temp,PH and sg of the tank the horse in is now. be sure you add an airline and hitch. This will get the horse into some fresh water which is greatly needed.

I would do this immediately and try to save this horse.


Edit: We must have been posting at the same time. I would still move this horse to a hospital tank immediately.

 

[A30sguy]

no i did, my ammonia is currently 0, and I just put in a new cartridge two seconds ago even tho my other one was just put in as well. I don't realy have any tank that i can use as a hospital tank and at this point I think that the problem is more going on with the horse itself than with the tank just judging from the water quality and the fact that two snails and a hermot crab and feather duster are all doing just fine.

 

[Sk8r]

I think right now you've done about all you can and just cross your fingers and hope the horses can pass the toxin out via their kidneys and be ok. The longer they swim upright the better their chances, as the amount they've taken in will pass via excretion. Unlike with people, where you can just pour water down them, you just have to wait this one out and keep those water params as good as can be.

 

[A30sguy]

ok, thanks for your help, i'll post again once i know how the 3rd horse is going to be.

 

[pledosophy]

I would get a hospital tank and pull the horse. Around here you can get a 10g for 10 bucks. Temp and PH match new clean salt water, move the seahorse, then slowly drop the temp on the hospital tank to 69F. Get as much extra salt water as you can. You might be doing some major water changes on the hospital tank soon. If you make your own water, I'd start a batch.

You can use a HOB filter for the hospital tank for now. The tank will not be cycled so you will need to do at least 50% water changes once a day. I would keep the tank bare bottom with no liverock. Use some type of plastic hitches that can be taken out and cleaned. If you have to start using meds, then you will need to remove the filter.

I would also begin to supplement the seahorses food with Beta Glucan.

Do you have the apropriate meds on hand. I am not certain you will need them, but if you do not have NEO3 on your shelf, I would order it from Seahorsesource.com today.

Maybe I should explain my thinking.

You just mixed seahorses that had no previous resistance to each other, or to what the other seahorse was carrying. (this is an assumption, you may have got them from the same reputable breeder) Even if the seahorses were from the same breeder with two deaths that quickly no doubt those seahorses and your remaining seahorse where very stressed due to environmental factors. When seaorses become stressed there is an internal bacteria that they carry that can easily take over and cause serious illness.

It is possible that te slug and the deaths were a coincidence, but I really doubt it. It is my best guess that the slug released toxins, poisoning the water in the tank, causing the deaths of the seahorses. The best way to remove the toxins is to run a boat load of carbon.

My worry is that due to the amount of stress from the toxins, coupled with the mixing of previously unintroduced horses that you are going to see a backlash in the form of a bacterial infection known as vibrio.

Lowering the temp of the hospital tank to 69F will greatly slow the growth rate of the bacteria. It makes the bacteria much less aggresive. When in the early stages this alone is a huge advantage in dealing with the disease.

The beta glucan (available at a local health food store for humans) is an immune system stimulant and will help the seahorse to be stronger so it will be able to fight off any oncoming infection, if there is one.

The Neo3 is a mix of Neomycin and sulpha's, it was designed especially for seahorses, it is at the proper dosage for seahorses, and it is the most succsessful medication I have seen used IME. Most medications that are sold for fish are not sold at the appropriate dosage to combat the strains of vibrio that seahorses carry.

I know the advice I have posted sounds radical and is much more extreme then anything anyone else has mentioned. If I were you, it is what I would do. I would not wait and see if the horse was going to be O.K.. Worst and best case if you follow my advice I am dead wrong, the seahorse is fine, it goes back in the display in a couple of weeks, and you have gone through a lot of water but know have a complete hospital setup and meds for when you need them.

IMO if you treat this aggressively now, it might save you from treating a full blown outbreak aggresively a week from now.

Do a search for vibrio, it can present itself in many forms. Most common visable symptoms are white spots or sloughing of the skin. Often presenting on the tip of the tail or the tip of the snout, but can show anywhere. Annorexia is a symptom.

Good Luck.
Kevin
Please PM me with your email if you are still having a problem accsessing the other site. I will try to work it out for you.

 

[A30sguy]

Thanks for your help Kevin, I'm going to get to work and do everythig that I can. I got her to start eating a little and hopefully these other things will help.

 

[mal40]

Why vibrio? Surely this is just poisoning?

100% water change in the tank, and put the seahorse back in?

 

[swedge]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8071156#post8071156 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mal40
Why vibrio? Surely this is just poisoning?

100% water change in the tank, and put the seahorse back in?

toxin/poisoning = stress = reduced immune system = susceptible to infections = vibrio infection

Water changes to remove the toxins and meds to treat any possible upcoming infections.

 

[pledosophy]

Swege, nice to see you here. I don't think we've met. Great to have someone with your training on the site.

I agree with your assesment. The seahorse has obviously been exposed to a great amount of stress. IME and IMVHO vibrio infections are often a secondary infection following a stressor.

I do not think that I would use antibiotics just yet. I would wait for visable signs of illness. IMO using antibiotics prophylatically is a horrible idea, the same as under dosage is.

No offense at all meant towards Ben, and Ben please don't take it this that way at all, I am really trying to help you the best I can but I read this post several ways. IMO Mal is a very knowledgable keeper and if I can explain my reasoning maybe he can tell me I am in error, or recommend something better. Sometimes if we just discuss things openly and bluntly it can lead to better ideas as a consenus then just following one persons ideas, unfortuantley two problems occur with this, sometimes people who have no idea what they are talking about weigh in with opinions that are detremental and confusing to the original poster, and sometimes the original poster thinks they are being "attacked" and gets there feelings hurt. I mean absolutley no disrespect at all, the discussion is us trying to figure out the best way to help you. Please take it as such.

Out of the posts I got this.

1. This is a relativley new keeper to seahorses who doesn't have much experience with salt water systems in relation to seahorses.

2. Three seahorses were mixed, since they were not purchased at the same time there is no way of knowing without confirmation from Ben that they hae any previous exposure to each other or the strains of bacteria that the others were carrying.

3. If the issue was just poisoning the carbon in the filter should have taken care of it before the deaths. If it was a small tank and the poisoning was that intense then all the fish should have died. The seahorses did not die immediatley, they died after new carbon was introduced and a 50% WC was completed.

4. I find it odd that only the two original seahorses died while the new seahorse remains alive. Could be a coincidence, but I find it an odd one.

5. Annorexia can be associated with poisoning, but is also a classic sign of vibrio.

I don't think that Ben should sart with antibiotics, but seeing how the seahorse that is alive was just mixed with two other seahorses, and then put under an extremely stressful situation from the slug IMO the best option would be to completely remove him from the toxic waters, and placed in a clean environment which is setup to discourage bacterial growth so if the seahorse is battling any type of vibrio, from the stress or the mix, it will have a better chance of fighting off the infection. If the horse is in the hospital tank and does show signs, if the meds are present and the temp is low your ready to treat right then. However by keeping the horse in the lower temps for this amount of time and supplementing the foods with beta glucan it is possible the seahorse will be able to fight the illness off on it's own (providing no visable signs ever show) and antibiotics will not have to be used. JMO.

I am not satisfied 100% that the slug is responsible. This is kind of like a wide spectrum care advice.

Thoughts?

 

[JennyL]

Ben,

If you don't have a spare tank to use as a hospital tank, you can use a plastic bucket(never used) in an emergency situation.

Any meds you use must be done in a hospital tank.

Methylene Blue is a good Med and is gentle on the horse. It has some anti-parasitic and anti-bacterial qualities and is really great for detox and will also aid in lessening the stress.

 

[A30sguy]

wow thanks to everyone who posted. There seems to be a lot of questions about the horses and my experience. I didn't get into seahorses until I had read a lot of material on them and researched for several months and I was sure to get them all from the same reputable breeder. They even came out of the exact same tank from the same place. They had all been exposed to the same things. The only unfortunate part was that they were kept with strawberry slugs before I bought them so I thought that it would be ok for me to keep them with strawberry slugs and obviously it wasn't. As for the remaining seahorse, Stevezy, he made it through the night and is still recovering but eating very well for now. Last night I slowly dropped the temp and added some stuf to help his immune system, but since it was the only thing in the tank that i was concerned about right now I did not removed him from the tank, and I also didnt want to cause even mroe stress. Thank you so much for everyone's input and help. It's good to know that there's somewhere we can go when we need help.

 

[swedge]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8075861#post8075861 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pledosophy
Swege, nice to see you here. I don't think we've met. Great to have someone with your training on the site.

Thanks, glad to be here. Just started hanging out in the SH area recently.

I do not think that I would use antibiotics just yet. I would wait for visable signs of illness. IMO using antibiotics prophylatically is a horrible idea, the same as under dosage is.

Agreed. I guess I shoud have worded it as Medicate whe signs of disease arise


Ben,

Glad to hear te 3rd horsie seems to obe improving. Hopefully the worst is over.