Equipment advice request

[sub653]

I'm wanting to order a tank (I'm thinking 48LX27WX33H, about 180gal) and I want to do it right the first time and plan as carefully as possible . I'd like to ask you guys some questions.

First, is the 33" too deep to get adaquate light to grow soft and hard coral? Assuming I use two 250w MH and two to four T5s.

If I use a 70 gal sump/refugium the total volume of the system would be about 250 gallons.

I'm thinking two corner overflows in the tank with each having their own return pump, say 600 gal/h each after a 6' head.?

I would rather not use powerheads inside the tank so I'm thinking of having a closed loop that draws from a third hole in the overflows and returns either to the back and/or side of the tank.
If they discharged from each side would it be possible to somehow incorporate a wave action in the system?

How much flow would be best for the closed loop?

Will there be enough overflow volume to provide for both the 1200gal total sump return and the closed loop flow or should the closed loop draw from a third overflow?

How far below the waterline would be best to have the closed loop discarge holes drilled?

Also, can I have the sump returns drilled though the overflow walls instead of having a pipe coming over the top of the overflow?

There is a lot I don't know and I would appreciate all the help you guys can give.

Thanks,
Ken

 

[andywe]

Re: Equipment advice request

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15365456#post15365456 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sub653
I'm wanting to order a tank (I'm thinking 48LX27WX33H, about 180gal) and I want to do it right the first time and plan as carefully as possible . I'd like to ask you guys some questions.

First, is the 33" too deep to get adaquate light to grow soft and hard coral? Assuming I use two 250w MH and two to four T5s.

If I use a 70 gal sump/refugium the total volume of the system would be about 250 gallons.

I'm thinking two corner overflows in the tank with each having their own return pump, say 600 gal/h each after a 6' head.?

I would rather not use powerheads inside the tank so I'm thinking of having a closed loop that draws from a third hole in the overflows and returns either to the back and/or side of the tank.
If they discharged from each side would it be possible to somehow incorporate a wave action in the system?

How much flow would be best for the closed loop?

Will there be enough overflow volume to provide for both the 1200gal total sump return and the closed loop flow or should the closed loop draw from a third overflow?

How far below the waterline would be best to have the closed loop discarge holes drilled?

Also, can I have the sump returns drilled though the overflow walls instead of having a pipe coming over the top of the overflow?

There is a lot I don't know and I would appreciate all the help you guys can give.

Thanks,
Ken

Alot of questions there Ken, so I am sure multiple opinions will come. I ahve 8 tanks, so here are my opinions:

1) - Yes, 33" is too deep for 250MH, especially if you plan on running sps. I your jsut going to run softies, you can probably get away with it, but at that depth 400W is your number.

2) 70 Gal sump will be fine

3) Overflow volume is fine, but I would say you need to think about your pump situation. With your planned closed loop, do you want 3 pumps running, or perhaps go with a alrger pump such as a reeflo Barracuda or hammerhead to drive it all. Would run cooler than having 3 pumps in sump, and probably less electricity overall.

4) If you want to move volume with your closed loop and plan on feeding it from your overflows, then 1200gph overflows is not enough. I really do think a 3rd overflow/drain is best for the closed loop.

5) Dischage hole location is entirely up to you..it depends on your design. Some people ahve them all over the place, others jsut go in the top and then down the back wall. Your overflow design will dictate your hole locations. As a rule of thumb I would stay at least 1-1/2" below the rim, and 1-1/2 above the bottom jsut to decrease the chance of a stress fracture.

6) If you drill your sump return wall for the return, I suppose it is possible, but you will want to seal the pipe going through the wall to ensure your overflows work correctly, otherwise your overflows will draw from the hole that is loser than the top. One other concern is what will happen when the return pump is off. Better have check vlaivels and gate valves in place or your returns will siphon water back into the sump when the return is off.

Good Luck!

Andy

 

[NeveSSL]

You wouldn't be able to grow hard corals with that light and in that deep of water. Just not enough light or penetrating power for that depth.

You wouldn't have to do two return pumps. It all goes to the same place, so it can leave from the same place.

I'm fairly certain you wouldn't want water from a closed loop coming from a drain because it would suck up a lot of air. At the same time, I've never done one either, and quite honestly, I can't think of where people do usually get their inputs for their closed loops from... :lol: As far as flow goes, its quite debatable, but ultimately just get as much as you can without stirring your sandbed up or, if you're bare bottom, as much as you can afford to have without stripping the flesh off of your corals. There are other things to consider, however, such as where the flow is pointed and how it is dispersed through out the tank.

Two overflows should be fine with 1200g assuming they're large enough.

Not sure on the discharge holes. I don't think it matters too much since its a closed loop, meaning it can't overflow like the returns from your sump.

I have my returns drilled through the back glass of my tank instead of coming over the top... I like it better, too!

I know there are a lot of things I've missed, so I'm sure someone else will chime in!

Hope this helps!

Brandon

 

[fallinapart]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15365728#post15365728 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NeveSSL

I'm fairly certain you wouldn't want water from a closed loop coming from a drain because it would suck up a lot of air. At the same time, I've never done one either, and quite honestly, I can't think of where people do usually get their inputs for their closed loops from... :lol:

Brandon

closed loop intakes usually come from a drilled hole in the back of the tank well below the water line. In fact mine is only about 4 inches from the bottom.

 

[NeveSSL]

Ahhh... ok, thanks Norman.

Brandon

 

[sub653]

Andy, what I was thinking about the pumps is having two sump return pumps in case one went out on me while I was away so I would still maintain some filtering flow.

I would include check valves and ball valves.

I got the idea of the sump return discharging going through the face fo the overflow from mixer911's very nice cube tank he shows on http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...25&pagenumber=1. Thanks Aquaman67 for passing that along. I was up half the night admiring it. The more I learn the more evident it is how much I don't know.

Two 400W MH willl put off a lot of heat. I would like to cool the space down with fans alone if possible and not have to use a chiller. If I went with a 30"H tank with a 4" sand bed, making the effective depth 26", do you think I could go with the two 250W lamps?

Brandon, it make sense that drawing suction from an overflow would suck in a lot of air. As an old submariner I would call that massive cavitation! (very dangerous!)

Having the sump returns coming through the back glass would unclutter the overflow. It seem that keeping the overflows quiet is as much an art as a science.

Norman, how do you keep from sucking up critters in you closed loop drawing suction in the back of the tank? Do you have a cage over it?

Where does your closed loop discharge? What size is your pump on the loop? I assume you throttle it with a ball valve?

Thanks again for letting me pick your collective brains! There's no substutute for experience.

Please keep the ideas coming!

Ken (and Jennifer, my daughter)
Can you tell we're excited about getting back into salt water?

 

[commonstranger]

Sub your idea on the depth of a 4" sand bed with a 30" tank would be fine. I just dont like a sandbed that deep IMO. With my new tank I have a deep sand bed in my sump. When I didnt have a barebottom tank I kept mine at about 2 to 2 1/2" but hey thats all comes down to prefrence.

 

[fallinapart]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15366473#post15366473 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sub653



Norman, how do you keep from sucking up critters in you closed loop drawing suction in the back of the tank? Do you have a cage over it?

Where does your closed loop discharge? What size is your pump on the loop? I assume you throttle it with a ball valve?

Thanks again for letting me pick your collective brains! There's no substutute for experience.

Please keep the ideas coming!

Ken (and Jennifer, my daughter)
Can you tell we're excited about getting back into salt water?

,
Ken, I do have a guard over the intake, but have lost an anemone to the intake. and my return for the closed loop is over the top and then a series of ports buried under my sand bad, so the return closed loop is discharged from the bottom of the tank. and yes I can control the flow with ball valves, but it has been full flow since day one.

setting one up is a lot of fun, so I know you and your family are excited abou.t the whole process, so keep asking questions

 

[Pickupman66]

agreed on not having hte loop in an overflow. it needs to just draw directly form the tank. best way is like others have said. drill the about halfway down the tank. as for the dual pumps, keep in mind, that means twice the elect, twice the noise and twice the heat. I would suggest one larger pump.

 

[sub653]

Pickupman66, good point about the extra power and heat required for two pumps. We'll definitely consider using one pump for the sake of power conservation. If we go on vacation and the pump fails and the tank sits with no filtration for, say, five days, would there be problems other than water evaporation leading to increased salinity and the lack of any filtration? Would there be a possibility of damage to the livestock? (Assuming no flooding as we intend to have plenty of sump capacity.)

Andy, do you know how deep a 250w MH hanging one foot above the water level will penetrate? We want to avoid having to use a chiller and so would like to stay with 250w lights. What is the maximum depth for growing sps under those conditions?

Also, we found an article from 2003 (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2003/short.htm) about a closed loop using one powerful pump (Sequence Dart, 3600 gph, 22% efficient) and a loop of pvc pipe with at least six outlets set at the rim of the aquarium. Flexible spouts were used to direct the flow to any dead spots or corals that need higher flow than others. Has anyone tried this type of system? Does it work? The article was from 2003, is there something that might work better?

 

[andywe]

Sub,

Your lioghts I would reccomend 6-9" up, and not a foot. a 250mh is good to about 24 inches in tank height.. Anything over that in tank depth and 400 is your number. SPS would sit the bottom3rd to the top depending on it's light requirements.

 

[sub653]

Thanks Andy,
We've been doing a lot of checking and we agree that at least one side will be 400w.

Any thoughts on the closed loop discharging to the surface of the water around the perimeter vs other options?

 

[andywe]

As far as closed loop goes, it's all preference. I prefer the clean look with holes drill in the back for it...some like a ring around the top with top returns, and even use a waterfall effect....other use elaborate schemes with eggcrate covering piping on the bottom, filling in with the sand and rising through elaborate rock work. It is all up to your imagination

 

[sub653]

Thanks everyone!