Experience with Cupramine?

[StephM33]

We are treating our QT tank with SeaTech Cupramine. We started with the recommended amount, and found that the Copper level wasn't anywhere near .5 m/g

Even doubling the recommended dosage we still can't get a reading of more than 2.5 m/g

Has anyone else had this problem with this product?

Steph

 

[c_stowers]

I haven't used it personally, but I had a friend that did a few months back. I remember him saying that the recommended doses were no where near the recommended "levels". He said he had to continially test and dose to maintain the levels near what they were suppose to be.

 

[slider162]

I just started tonight. I haven't tested yet. I am giving it a chance to mix before I introduce the fish. I would like to compare notes. I will post back after I test.

 

[arizona tech]

i have used it,and the first time i had to double the dose to get a reading, make sure you have a good copper test kit i like red sea copper test kit myself, are you dosing the copper in a qt tank?

 

[slider162]

Seachem makes Cupramin, but you can't use a Seachem kit to test for it.. yet. Use a Red Sea test kit or Salifert. I am right where I think I should be after day 1 at .2 PPM at the recommended dosage.

 

[StephM33]

We're testing with Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Copper test, not ideal I know but our local LFS doesn't sell anything else and we figured some Test was better than no test. We need to order Salifert online. BTW, what do people think of SeaChem? It's the only other test available locally.

The Cupramine bottle doesn't mention ppm anywhere, just .5 mg/L as the recommended dosage (not gallon as I mentioned earlier sorry). We are currently at twice the recommended dose with a reading of still .25mg/L. I am glad to hear that we're not the only ones that have had this experience.

We are currently adding an additional 1ml at a time, and retesting after a few hours and it's had a chance to circulate properly.

It is a QT tank, yes. 20 gallon. I'll keep you posted.

Steph

 

[slider162]

I was reading off of the Red Sea card. I think mg/L is the metric equivalant to PPM.

Take a look at this thread about the problems with the Seachem copper test kit and Cupramine.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=691263&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

 

[StephM33]

WOW. That was thread was quite a read. I'm not sure how it affects us though since we are used an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals copper test. We've now double checked with a Sera copper test (the only other brand the LFS had) and we're getting the same results, so I guess the answer is that you have to dose at about 2.5 times the recommended dose to get the recommended result of .5mg/L We chose the Cupramine treatment because it seemed to be the most gentle and effective treatment, however this problem with the test kits has made what should be fairly routine, quite nerve wracking. I won't breathe a sigh of relief until the QT'ed fish are happy in the main tank.

Steph

 

[slider162]

You mentioned the Seachem test being the only other test available locally. I just wanted to warn you. I will be adding the second dose tonight. Unfortunately, the Red Sea only goes up to .4 PPM. I'll post back after that.

 

[lildraken]

I've had the same problem with cupramine requiring more than the recommended dose. I've found that a weak level at about .3 PPM solved my velvet problem but higher levels of around .5 PPM (assuming it's around that high since my test kit only measures up to .4PPM) worked for ich and unfortunately the pods.

Also my coralline algae and chaetomorpha is dead too! Has anybody had experience with cupramine killing off their algae?

 

[slider162]

My experience has been the same. The initial dose seemed to be right on track, but the second dose required more than recommended to get to .4.

lildraken, are you saying that you dosed your display? If so, yes, it will kill your inverts. I can't seem to do enough water changes to keep my trites and trates in check, so I can only assume that the beneficial bacteria is alive and well. You need to run cuprasorb and carbon to rid your tank of cupramine. Even then, it will still leach out over time. Get yourself a phosban reactor for the carbon and leave it running 24/7 for at least a few months, if not forever.

 

[StephM33]

Lildraken, - I can't speak to whether the Cupramine kills off good algae or not as I've been treating in a bare QT tank. Are you treating your main display because you have a true FOWLR without any inverts? If that's the case, from what I understand, even though you have no inverts to be worried about, you will kill off all the life and good bacteria in your LR and sand bed, (and perhaps your algae as you report) so while your display tank can recover from that, it will take time and you'll have to watch your water paramaters closely as without the beneficial bacteria you will likely have an ammonia spike. My understanding anyway..do others agree?

I can report that the "Sera" brand copper test was both reasonably priced and gave the same results as a Salifert test. I finally found a LFS which carries Salifert, but they were out the Copper test, and recommended Sera as another accurate (and more reasonably priced) option. I was skeptical so they ran both tests on one of their tanks being dosed with Cupramine and I saw that both tests yielded the same results. So, came home with the Sera - and at least have no more problems in determining what the actual Copper level is.

We did find out the hard way that the Flame Angel probably cannot handle the recommended level of Copper, as when we dosed according to the Cupramine bottle (which yielded almost unreadable Copper results) the Flame seemed to improve breathing wise, eat and be active, but once we got the proper water test and dosed appropriately to reach the desired .5ppm, the Flame died 4 days later, with inflamed gills. Could it have been the Ich even though it was not at all visible ....sure, it's possible, but considering that in retrospect I remember hearing that Flames (along with Tangs) are overly sensitive to Copper than other fish, I doubt it. Not hard evidence I know, but perhaps something to consider for others treating Flame Angels. BTW, the Blue Throat trigger that we were treating at the same time as the Flame, is now in the display and doing extremely well.

As far as Tangs go - we now have a Powder Blue Tang in QT, and are treating proactively because other Powder Blue's in the same shipment were showng signs of Ich when we purchased him although he appeared clear. He's doing fine at recommended Copper levels so far.

Slider - BTW, you mentioned Red Sea only goes to .4ppm. You may want to consider Sera that reads at 0, .3, .5. 1.0, 2.5 ppm.

Just my 2cents....

Steph

 

[lildraken]

Yes I did take a chance and treated my display tank with cupramine. It's advertised to be easily removed with carbon and cuprisorb so we'll see how it goes.
Just in my experience so far... my flame angel is doing great! however the tank looks like sh*t. All the live rocks have turned a brown or rusty color and all the algaes are dead. I see that there are some reddish cyano bacteria that is starting to show and the nitrogen cycle has not been disturbed since the ammonia and nitrate levels are approximately 0. The hermit crabs that were hidden and therefor not removed are still alive to my surprise.
I started cycling the cuprisorb and carbon yesterday so we'll see how long it takes for the copper to be removed. so far the levels haven't changed in close to 24 hrs.

 

[lildraken]

oh yes steph. I just have enough sand in my tank to cover the bottom of the glass, but not much of a sand bed. I did have corals and inverts but everything including the snails were removed before the treatment. There would have been a huge ammonia spike if I left organisms there that would die but luckily the only die off that I've observed was the chaetomorpha and coralline algae.

 

[beach]

i recently purchased a flame angel and 2 six line wrasses.put them in the qt with recommended dose of cupramine. every body was fine and eating until the 6 day .the emporer angel,sailfin tang,gobies look great but the flame and wrasses died.is it due to cu?beach

 

[StephM33]

Lildraken - Glad to hear that things are going well (albeit ugly looks wise!). Let us know how things go in the end...always good to hear someone else's experiences.

Beach - well, the copper could be the culprit, but if you were only dosing at the recommended dosage on the Cupramine bottle (meaning 5ml/10 gallons rather than taking it one step further and testing the water for copper and increasing the amount of Cupramine added to reach the desired concentration listed on the bottle of .5mg/L.) then personally I would doubt it as in my experience you would be at a pretty low (almost unreadable) concentration of copper in your water. That's really how this thread came about, me questioning whether other people found they had to double (or more) the dose to get the recommended concentration.

In my case the Flame did fine for days at the recommended dosage, and it was only when I increased it to actually get the proper concentration that the Flame died after 4 days of dosing at the correct concentration. Apparently Tangs are amongst the fish being sesitive to Copper treatments as well, but I haven't found that (yet) in treating a Powder Blue. Wrasses? I haven't heard that they are overly sensitive to Copper, but perhaps others have an opinion on that.

I think I would be looking at other causes of death first. How large is your QT tank? You have a lot of fish in there, and IMHO things can go badly really fast in QT . Are you sure that all of your other water parameters (especially ammonia and nitrites) are in line?

If yes, then I would look at Oxygenation. Again, it can be harder to keep a decent O2 level, especially since you have a lot of fish in QT. Are you doing anything to increase in aeration? Are the other fish active and eating well, or are they hovering either near the surface, or near any air stones, or even in a corner of the tank If yes to any of those (and your water parameters are in check) I would say lack of dissolved oxygen in the water.

Perhaps someone else with more experience may have other suggestions for you, but I would start there....eliminating all other potential causes leaving the copper as the last suspect. Give us some more info and maybe we can continue to help.

Steph