Expertise again please with new fish incoming

[JJIM]

Hello everyone!

I will be getting some fish in tomorrow from BZ, specifically a couple Fairy Wrasses, Midas Blenny, Tribal Blenny, two Dwarf Angelfish (one flame), and a saddleback butterfly fish.

Plan- place all fish in my existing quarantine tank that has a Kole Yellow Eye tang and a Pygmy Angel in it. The system has been fully functioning in a quarantine capacity for the past 4 months, and the two fish have been in the tank without any medication (since it was treated also) for over two weeks. All my other fish have been put back in my main DT and doing wonderfully. I plan to use this tank as another DT after the quarantine process is complete. The two existing fish will be part of my new system when all is said and done.

Currently in the system I have powerheads pushing water around nicely, a heater, HOB filter with carbon running (extra flow and filtration), PVC pipe, glass jars, and plastic plants for aquascape, fish pleasure, and aesthetics.

I have BRS rock coming in tomorrow that will be used as aquascape, but guessing should wait until I medicate or hypo tank first to ensure I have a sterile system? Sand and other supplies will be added as necessary, and I have most everything on hand medication wise and extra supplies if needed.

Now- I really need to decide on a coarse of action, with everyones help, I hope :spin3:.

Advise if you will-

 

[b0bab0ey]

How big is your QT? Is the BRS rock LR or dry rock? Does the HOB filter have a seeded sponge for biological filtration? Any biological filtration in the QT?

 

[MrTuskfish]

If you put new fish in with existing fish; the fish's "parasite" clock goes back to day one . The existing fish in QT will be exposed to any possible parasites that the new fish carry. If you have somewhere to put the new rock & substrate, I would. IMO, a QT should have bare bottom and no rock. This stuff absorbs and releases meds; often making proper dosing difficult, if not impossible. It sounds like you're going to prophylacticly treat the new fish. What meds are you planning? Flame Angels are possibly the most copper-sensitive fish I know of. If you plan a preemptive strike on ich, I'd strongly suggest tank-transfer. Or just observe and treat only if needed. I assume you'll use PraziPro to deworm---no concerns there. I don't know your tank size; but with 3 dwarf angels, the bigger the better. I think these fish usually do just fine, but there are many hobbyists who have never been able to mix dwarf angels without a lot of fighting. Sounds like a great tank in the making; don't go too fast and watch the ammonia. Like b0bab0ey post was referring to; ammonia in the QT is often a major problem. Be sure you have fresh water made up & mixing; WCs may be be a big part of your life. If you're using the same filter, and filter media, that were used with the other fish; you'll probably be OK.

 

[JJIM]

If you put new fish in with existing fish; the fish's "parasite" clock goes back to day one . The existing fish in QT will be exposed to any possible parasites that the new fish carry. If you have somewhere to put the new rock & substrate, I would. IMO, a QT should have bare bottom and no rock. This stuff absorbs and releases meds; often making proper dosing difficult, if not impossible. It sounds like you're going to prophylacticly treat the new fish. What meds are you planning? Flame Angels are possibly the most copper-sensitive fish I know of. If you plan a preemptive strike on ich, I'd strongly suggest tank-transfer. Or just observe and treat only if needed. I assume you'll use PraziPro to deworm---no concerns there. I don't know your tank size; but with 3 dwarf angels, the bigger the better. I think these fish usually do just fine, but there are many hobbyists who have never been able to mix dwarf angels without a lot of fighting. Sounds like a great tank in the making; don't go too fast and watch the ammonia. Like b0bab0ey post was referring to; ammonia in the QT is often a major problem. Be sure you have fresh water made up & mixing; WCs may be be a big part of your life. If you're using the same filter, and filter media, that were used with the other fish; you'll probably be OK.

My tank has no rock or substrate in it at the moment, just plastic rocks, pvc pipe, and glass jars other than the necessities i.e. heater, pumps ammonia guard, temp probe, hob filter for added flow and will remove any media if necessary. The rock coming in from BRS is dry and the sand is also coming in the next day or two. I will add live cycled rock from an existing tank to this one once I have the process complete. I was thinking of treating prophylactic or hypo; however I am willing to do what is necessary while the tank is essentially bare to get it right. Also as you well know, I ordered all these fish at once to go through the whole process one time, and having the two fish in my existing tank helped keep it cycled and fun to watch :spin2:.

Which process to follow?

1. Hypo-

2. prophylacticly-

3. Copper/Prazi, etc. (dosages for copper given the Flame angel and Butterfly).

4. Simply observe and only treat as necessary (I must admit that this scares me as there are too many uncontrollables as time goes on in introducing pests after my process is complete)

4. Combination?

Yes, three angles could present a problem, but I have read numerous threads and heard personal accounts of it being no problem. The three I have selected are all small/young, which was also intentional.

P.S. coupled with the ammonia guard I plan to use stress guard and stability in the first couple weeks to negotiate any possible spikes.

 

[h2so4hurts]

That seems like a lot of fish for a QT tank? I usually have a one in, one out policy. It's really stressful for new fish to have to immediately compete for food with other tank mates. It's also much harder to adjust fish to a feeding regime when you can't focus on them as individuals.

I agree with Mr.T, having anything in there but plastic and glass is a huge no-no. There are a couple of studies out showing that crypto and other ectoparasites have an extremely hard time sticking to plastic and glass, but will readily attach to and grow on gravel, concrete, and rock. (I can't seem to find the papers right now, I'll try again when I have more free time!)

Since an ich outbreak 5 years ago, I have an extremely aggressive dip protocol for all fish. I drip acclimate for 2 hrs and then treat for 1hr with lots of aeration in a bucket containing (150mg/L)/malachite green (0.5mg/L) or (5mL RidIch+ per gallon of SW). This is a pretty standard treatment in aquaculture. I haven't had a problem with crypto since. Of course, this is followed by 3-4 weeks of observation in QT for other nasties and a deworming and defluking treatment with API's quick cure (Prazi + Mino). And I run a 25watt UV sterilizer on my 24 gallon aquapod QT tank...

 

[MrTuskfish]

Just my opinion on preemptive treatment for ich. I am a big fan of Cupramine Copper, but a flame angel is one of a very few I won't use it on. ( Well, I probably would use it at a lower dosage, but can't bring myself to suggest it to others. I would rather lose a fish to copper than put an untreated fish into my DT. I'm more worried about Velvet than Ich, Cu kills both.) Speaking just for myself; I no longer have any faith in hypo. I think is is far too demanding for most folks and many parasites seem to survive the low SG. Tank transfer would be ideal, if you have the equipment. Snorvich has written a great sticky on the subject. You may be the ideal candidate to research and try the Quinine drugs. Some great hobbyists love them; but I still have some unanswered questions about keeping it in suspension and measuring for it.

 

[JJIM]

How big is your QT? Is the BRS rock LR or dry rock? Does the HOB filter have a seeded sponge for biological filtration? Any biological filtration in the QT?

Yes, I have a couple seeded sponges currently and others to move in if need be. There is no rock or substrate in the tank, it was a quarantine tank and will be until they finish taking their medicine as nice children should :eek1: Thereafter I will make the tank into a mostly fish only with frags from my other tank, but not too carried away, we'll this is my initial thinking .

Fish are all in my tank now and seem to be doing well for the night. I will watch the ammonia and change water as needed. I am thinking I will treat prophylacticly to help ward off any bugs so that I can rest easier when I begin to add the dry and live rock with substrate. I will likely be looking at 6 weeks, but as Mr. TF noted I am a bit concerned with Flame angel in treating with SeaChem Cupermine, but prazi no worries.

Does Cupermine even work unless you hit a certain threshold/level?

Suggestions for a med regimen moving forward in treating prophylacticly?

 

[b0bab0ey]

Yes, I have a couple seeded sponges currently and others to move in if need be. There is no rock or substrate in the tank, it was a quarantine tank and will be until they finish taking their medicine as nice children should :eek1: Thereafter I will make the tank into a mostly fish only with frags from my other tank, but not too carried away, we'll this is my initial thinking .

Fish are all in my tank now and seem to be doing well for the night. I will watch the ammonia and change water as needed. I am thinking I will treat prophylacticly to help ward off any bugs so that I can rest easier when I begin to add the dry and live rock with substrate. I will likely be looking at 6 weeks, but as Mr. TF noted I am a bit concerned with Flame angel in treating with SeaChem Cupermine, but prazi no worries.

Does Cupermine even work unless you hit a certain threshold/level?

Suggestions for a med regimen moving forward in treating prophylacticly?

Cupramine is effective from 0.35-0.5ppm. I've never treated a Flame with Cupramine, but I have treated one many times with CopperSafe. The effective level for CopperSafe is 1.5-2.0ppm. I don't know if possibly a Flame is more tolerant of the chelated copper sulfate used in CopperSafe vs. the fully charged (ionic) copper used in Cupramine.

I would definitely treat with Prazi first, as soon as you've got all the fish eating. Also, get yourself one of those Seachem ammonia altert badges to keep track of the ammonia. I've gotten into the habit of sucking all the crap off the bottom of my QT with some small tubing at least once a week. The slow flow from the small tubing let's me target stuff to suck out instead of just removing water.

 

[h2so4hurts]

I don't know if possibly a Flame is more tolerant of the chelated copper sulfate used in CopperSafe vs. the fully charged (ionic) copper used in Cupramine.

I've treated two flame angels in the past and was unsuccessful with coppersafe. Both died in less than 3 weeks. Those fish are extremely sensitive to copper. Maybe you'll have better luck though.

The only thing "safe" about coppersafe is that its easier to test for. The ACTIVE level of copper at 2ppm Coppersafe is similar to Cupramine that tests at 0.5ppm.

 

[b0bab0ey]

I've treated two flame angels in the past and was unsuccessful with coppersafe. Both died in less than 3 weeks. Those fish are extremely sensitive to copper. Maybe you'll have better luck though.

The only thing "safe" about coppersafe is that its easier to test for. The ACTIVE level of copper at 2ppm Coppersafe is similar to Cupramine that tests at 0.5ppm.

I hear what you're saying, but for some reason I've always had good luck treating with CopperSafe. Back in the day I wouldn't even hesitate treating species that are now considered "copper sensitive" with it. When I used to do aquarium maintenance we would treat every fish we got in with CopperSafe for 4-6 weeks. We didn't notice any unusual mortality rates with Flames and those came in with just about every shipment. I do notice, however, that fish tend to stop eating if you get the level up to 2.0ppm. 1.5ppm is still effective at killing Ich/parasites and you won't have the appetite suppression problem as much.

 

[MrTuskfish]

IMO & IME; there are a few good brands of copper available and, being as toxic as copper can be, all brands have their little quirks. The way I use copper, accurate testing is vital. that, plus the good tech support at SeaChem, is a big part of the reason I like Cupramine. However, I know other brands can work just as well---its just what you get used to. There are many fish on the "don't use copper" list that I treat with copper---no problems. Because of the controversy with some species and copper and the opinions of many folks I trust; I don't formally "suggest' this approach. My opinion on that is just that and nothing more; opinion and some experience (like everything on our forum).
I think very slow introduction of the copper, up to the selected level, is a real key to eliminating many copper related problems----including feeding problems. Fish should be eating well before adding any copper and if the fish stops feeding; that (IMO & IME) is the first sign of copper-sensitivity. Dropping copper levels for a couple of days, then increasing again, often eliminates the feeding problem. Copper needs respect, but I don't think it needs to be feared. You couldn't find a fish that hasn't been exposed to copper somewhere along the way.

 

[JJIM]

So it appears, as I expected, that either Cupramine (I have on hand) or coppersafe would be viable options when done "right". Introduce more slowly after all fish are eating, and monitor closely. Since I already have Cupramine I will probably go this route, but I am concerned about the test kit Seachem (I also have on hand) has for it as the .3 and .5 color strip included in their kit looks "sooo" similar.

It appears that you all understand where I am heading with this prophylactic method. I really want to be certain (95+%) that I have rid any incoming fish of any pests/disease. As we all know when stress is lower the disease may not show it head, but as soon as it does weeks down the road it may be too late without a full shut down of your tank for several months.

As the saying goes- Fool me once, shame on you, but twice, shame on me.

1. I will plan to sue some prazi and slowly introduce the copper simultaneously as I have ready that dosing both together really has not adverse effects (only decreases time of quarantine ). Anything else medication wise I should consider in looking at my plan?

P.S. Anyone had any luck with using Rid Ich +? Active ingredient is Contains formaldehyde and a zinc-free chloride salt of malachite green. I guess it could be use after the copper as another preventative due to the formaldehyde and malachite green?

 

[h2so4hurts]

LOL see #5...

Since an ich outbreak 5 years ago, I have an extremely aggressive dip protocol for all fish. I drip acclimate for 2 hrs and then treat for 1hr with lots of aeration in a bucket containing (150mg/L)/malachite green (0.5mg/L) or (5mL RidIch+ per gallon of SW).

I would NOT use RidIch to treat an entire tank, it messes with the biofilter (even though the bottle says it won't...).

 

[MrTuskfish]

LOL see #5...



I would NOT use RidIch to treat an entire tank, it messes with the biofilter (even though the bottle says it won't...).

Yes. this is a popular product for FW ich; not marine ich. The only time I'd ever use this in SW would be to treat brooklynella, in areas where formalin isn't available, IMO, it should only be used as a dip and only to cure brook. These are strong meds and SW fish can't handle the exposure time required to cure anything else. I think you're medicating your fish enough; 100% prevention isn't possible, but I think you're on the right track. Copper can be tough on fish; to follow the Cu with Mal. green & formaldehyde would really be dangerous over-kill, IMO.

 

[bvysochin]

Following your thread, thanks for posting this. I'm going through a very similar treatment using formalin/malachite green to battle brook. I have ordered Cupramine and plan to treat with copper once I get past this current stage.