Filtration systems for NPS
- Thread starter Jk5
- Start date
I got beaten (figuratively speaking) last time when I asked about details of filtration of the world known established tank with a lot of non-photosynthetic corals :rolleye1: , maybe you will be luckier 
Can contribute some links to the tank setups:
1. Daniela Stettler's tank, tubastrea and sps. More and even more . Translation is possible through search engine language tools.
2. Jens Kallmeyer .
I have filtration, that handles the multiple daily feedings, but it is very far from perfect - it doesn't keep nutrients low by itself, without not a small water changes and phosphate remover.
Also am very interested in this topic.
I tried feeding of the Rotifeast and Shellfish Diet, following the article, increased dose gradually and had to stop that - the system wasn't able to handle bioload.
Can contribute some links to the tank setups:
1. Daniela Stettler's tank, tubastrea and sps. More and even more . Translation is possible through search engine language tools.
2. Jens Kallmeyer .
I have filtration, that handles the multiple daily feedings, but it is very far from perfect - it doesn't keep nutrients low by itself, without not a small water changes and phosphate remover.
Also am very interested in this topic.
I tried feeding of the Rotifeast and Shellfish Diet, following the article, increased dose gradually and had to stop that - the system wasn't able to handle bioload.
tonyespinoza
Premium Member
hey dendro982 - how long were you able to feed heavily before you decided the system couldn't keep up?
so far my system is holding up but i'm not sure if it's just too soon to celebrate -- i've been running the tank for 8 months and it has had dendros for the past 3 months and i've been feeding 4 days a week with Enriched Brine Shriimp, Rotofeast, Phytofeast and Cyclopeeze, in addition to daily Mysis and Formula 2 for the fish.
It *didn't* work until I started running Polyp Labs Reef-Fresh Complete (which I assume is a simple way to culture bacteria and create a low nutrient environment).
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI...ives_Specialty_Coral_Supplements~vendor~.html
45g water volume
Tunze 9010 (oversized for this tank)
Tunze 3197 (one compartment running floss the other running carbon and GFO)
~40lb of Live Rock (1 year of service...)
Only monthly 25% water changes
Polyp Labs Reef Fresh
so far my system is holding up but i'm not sure if it's just too soon to celebrate -- i've been running the tank for 8 months and it has had dendros for the past 3 months and i've been feeding 4 days a week with Enriched Brine Shriimp, Rotofeast, Phytofeast and Cyclopeeze, in addition to daily Mysis and Formula 2 for the fish.
It *didn't* work until I started running Polyp Labs Reef-Fresh Complete (which I assume is a simple way to culture bacteria and create a low nutrient environment).
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI...ives_Specialty_Coral_Supplements~vendor~.html
45g water volume
Tunze 9010 (oversized for this tank)
Tunze 3197 (one compartment running floss the other running carbon and GFO)
~40lb of Live Rock (1 year of service...)
Only monthly 25% water changes
Polyp Labs Reef Fresh
I decided? I could only wish, that my tanks paid any attention to what I'm thinking they should do and do that 
I decided to stop this kind of feeding, otherwise I'll am at risk to deal with tank crash within a very short time, and have to cook rock after that.
Used this food for less than a month, and will not do that again - the water is fouling very quickly, inhabitants are depressed, green growth on the rock and diatoms on the glass.
Glad, that it works for you. Can you post details of filtration equipment and filtering inhabitants, amount and frequency of the feeding, anything else related. Photos will be especially appreciated.
I didn't post mine because it will not help with setting the good filtration.
I decided to stop this kind of feeding, otherwise I'll am at risk to deal with tank crash within a very short time, and have to cook rock after that.
Used this food for less than a month, and will not do that again - the water is fouling very quickly, inhabitants are depressed, green growth on the rock and diatoms on the glass.
Glad, that it works for you. Can you post details of filtration equipment and filtering inhabitants, amount and frequency of the feeding, anything else related. Photos will be especially appreciated.
I didn't post mine because it will not help with setting the good filtration.
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tonyespinoza
Premium Member
sure, i'll take pics this weekend. there is a diversity of livestock in the tank since it didn't start off as a NPS system.
Again, it's a 50g tank with about 45g of water.
The Tunze 9010 is (over) rated by Tunze up to 264gal
- Water throughput: 1,200 l/h (317 US gal./h)
- Air capacity: 650 l/h (171 US gal./h)
- 21W
- 4.9" x 4.4" x 16.8"
Tunze 3197 (one compartment running floss the other running carbon and GFO)
- Driven by Tunze 5001 on a multicontroller (oscillating between 250 to 660 gph)
- This is the only pump in the system
Temp runs at 77-78 via dual heaters and a fan across the top
~40lb of Live Rock (1 year of service...)
Only monthly 25% water changes
Polyp Labs Reef Fresh
FEEDING:
Daily AM
- 1 cube PE Mysis soaked in garlic/selcon for fish
- couple pinches of Formula 2 pellets
Wed PM (Target Feeding)
- 1 cube Hikari Mysis (smaller) soaked in selcon
Wed, Fri, Sat, Sun (Target Feeding)
- 5ml PhytoFeast
- 1/4 tsp DT Oyster Eggs
- 1 pump of Liquid Life Marine Plankton
Corals:
- 3 types of Carnation Coral (6" Red, 1" Oranges)
- 2 heads of Orange Tubastraea (5" and 3")
- Hammer/Anchor (Euphyllia) (8")
- Branching Frogspawn (Euphyllia) (8 large heads, 12 tiny heads)
- Reddish/Pink Echinophyllia (3.5")
- Red Eye Favites (5")
- Blue Mycedium (3.5")
- Purple Busy Gorgonian (10" & 8")
- ORA Green Polyp Leather
- ORA Pink Birdsnest w/ Purple Polyps (6")
- Green Birdsnest (5")
- Ponape Birdsnest (2.5")
- Misc. Birdsnest (1.5' frag)
- Tyree Geen Cap w/ Blue Polyps (1" frag)
- Sunset Monti (1" frag)
- Tubs Blue Zoos (35 polyps)
- Yellow Polyps (22 polyps)
- Green Zoos (12 polyps)
- GSP
- 4 types of mushroom rocks including smooth and frilly (>40 mouths)
- Pom Pom Pulsing Xenia
- Pulsing Xenia (Gray/blue)
- Blue Snowflake Anthelia (spread throughout)
Inverts:
- Blue Linkia (i know this is nuts originally bought as food for Harlequin in other tank, but he seems happy with the Asternias there) - 6")
- Serpent Star (7")
- Cleaner Shrimp (2, small and large)
- 12 cerith snails
- 6 trochus snails
- 10 blue-leg hermits
- apparently thousands of mysis and pods seen at night
Fish:
- Scribbled Rabbitfish (3.5")
- Ocellaris Clown (3")
- Cowfish (2.5")
- Mandarin Goby (2")
- Yellow Clown Goby (1.5")
Here's a pic from a while back before I put the NPS in:
Again, it's a 50g tank with about 45g of water.
The Tunze 9010 is (over) rated by Tunze up to 264gal
- Water throughput: 1,200 l/h (317 US gal./h)
- Air capacity: 650 l/h (171 US gal./h)
- 21W
- 4.9" x 4.4" x 16.8"
Tunze 3197 (one compartment running floss the other running carbon and GFO)
- Driven by Tunze 5001 on a multicontroller (oscillating between 250 to 660 gph)
- This is the only pump in the system
Temp runs at 77-78 via dual heaters and a fan across the top
~40lb of Live Rock (1 year of service...)
Only monthly 25% water changes
Polyp Labs Reef Fresh
FEEDING:
Daily AM
- 1 cube PE Mysis soaked in garlic/selcon for fish
- couple pinches of Formula 2 pellets
Wed PM (Target Feeding)
- 1 cube Hikari Mysis (smaller) soaked in selcon
Wed, Fri, Sat, Sun (Target Feeding)
- 5ml PhytoFeast
- 1/4 tsp DT Oyster Eggs
- 1 pump of Liquid Life Marine Plankton
Corals:
- 3 types of Carnation Coral (6" Red, 1" Oranges)
- 2 heads of Orange Tubastraea (5" and 3")
- Hammer/Anchor (Euphyllia) (8")
- Branching Frogspawn (Euphyllia) (8 large heads, 12 tiny heads)
- Reddish/Pink Echinophyllia (3.5")
- Red Eye Favites (5")
- Blue Mycedium (3.5")
- Purple Busy Gorgonian (10" & 8")
- ORA Green Polyp Leather
- ORA Pink Birdsnest w/ Purple Polyps (6")
- Green Birdsnest (5")
- Ponape Birdsnest (2.5")
- Misc. Birdsnest (1.5' frag)
- Tyree Geen Cap w/ Blue Polyps (1" frag)
- Sunset Monti (1" frag)
- Tubs Blue Zoos (35 polyps)
- Yellow Polyps (22 polyps)
- Green Zoos (12 polyps)
- GSP
- 4 types of mushroom rocks including smooth and frilly (>40 mouths)
- Pom Pom Pulsing Xenia
- Pulsing Xenia (Gray/blue)
- Blue Snowflake Anthelia (spread throughout)
Inverts:
- Blue Linkia (i know this is nuts originally bought as food for Harlequin in other tank, but he seems happy with the Asternias there) - 6")
- Serpent Star (7")
- Cleaner Shrimp (2, small and large)
- 12 cerith snails
- 6 trochus snails
- 10 blue-leg hermits
- apparently thousands of mysis and pods seen at night
Fish:
- Scribbled Rabbitfish (3.5")
- Ocellaris Clown (3")
- Cowfish (2.5")
- Mandarin Goby (2")
- Yellow Clown Goby (1.5")
Here's a pic from a while back before I put the NPS in:
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dendronephthya
New member
Charles Matthews here
Recommend:
1) GFO in large quantities to keep phosphates undetectable.
2) Miracle Mud denitrification or DSB as per Calfo. Polyp extension with MM is much better than DSB. Try turning off your skimmer when nutrients get controlled, use it as a GFO holder.
3) Feed phytoplankton by syringe pump in quantities sufficient to keep nitrates detectable. Advance as system tolerates.
Paper coming about all this...
Recommend:
1) GFO in large quantities to keep phosphates undetectable.
2) Miracle Mud denitrification or DSB as per Calfo. Polyp extension with MM is much better than DSB. Try turning off your skimmer when nutrients get controlled, use it as a GFO holder.
3) Feed phytoplankton by syringe pump in quantities sufficient to keep nitrates detectable. Advance as system tolerates.
Paper coming about all this...
tonyespinoza
Premium Member
good point - clarification - i do run carbon and GFO in my Tunze 3167.
Thank you, dendro982, tony and charles...
I guess the best filtration system for NPS is testing and playing with:
- Dsb or miracle mud ) or a 3 inches sand bed like Chuck Stottlemire (denitrification)
- GFO
- A bacterial growth method (like Polyp Labs Reef-Fresh Complete or Vodka)
¿how can we do for the sand bed doesnt become in a phosphorous store? ¿with fast flow, non sedimentary flow?
we need removal phosphorous no that phosphorous keep stored in the sand bed...
I guess the best filtration system for NPS is testing and playing with:
- Dsb or miracle mud ) or a 3 inches sand bed like Chuck Stottlemire (denitrification)
- GFO
- A bacterial growth method (like Polyp Labs Reef-Fresh Complete or Vodka)
¿how can we do for the sand bed doesnt become in a phosphorous store? ¿with fast flow, non sedimentary flow?
we need removal phosphorous no that phosphorous keep stored in the sand bed...
tonyespinoza
Premium Member
btw... i run my system barebottom. if you're running a probiotic system i don't know that you need the DSB (mud or not). in fact, if i were to run a dsb, i'd run it as an "RDSB" (Remote) so that you can easily swap all or part of it out over time since DSB's do eventually fail (see calfo's thread on the 5 gallon bucket RDSB). but this is kinda religious territory. i'm too big a control freak to trust a DSB to do it's "magic". also, most folks who run DSB's recommend 6".
also, most folks who run DSB's recommend 6".Jk5:
You understand, that I don't know what you already tried and know, so bear with me
:
- one more thread, Primary means of filtration?, to see what other non-photosynthetic keepers are using,
- there are 3 groups of food (dry, frozen, bottled with high liquid content) that in my humble experience affect water quality at different degree, dry - less, not the smallest frozen could be washed before feeding (to reduce the dissolved organics, which is not noticeably consumed), and RotiFeast-like, with high colloid-like content - it couldn't be washed, and this part couldn't be consumed, at least in my tanks. Phytoplankton use depends, again, on how many inhabitants are able to use it, otherwise it fouls water, if not removed by skimmer or probiotic system.
- The skimmers mentioned in successful cases are not just oversized (to 7x to the tank size), I tried this. They are working efficiently. At least I have no other explanation, why my skimmers don't do the job, and theirs - do.
Different skimmers react differently on dry and frozen food, and are resuming skimming with quite different interval after feeding and/or after being turned off.
- many use - in addition to the efficient skimmer - ozone and/or some probiotic system. Way to export nutrients by growing, harvesting and removing bacteria. It could be vodka, sugar, Reef-Fresh Complete, Prodibio BioKit Reef and Prodibio Bio Digest Rebalance Nitrates/Phosphates, Red Sea ProtoBac and maybe others.
The problem with them is removing bacterial bodies from the tank, not letting them to settle on walls, rock, anything in the tank. Supposedly skimmers should do that, mine didn't. I lost volitan lionfish when started dosing vodka (no overdosing and aeration was added), sugar only clouded water without affecting nitrates and phosphates (sorry, I'm not interested in talking why, only how to), after ProtoBac I'm now cooking live rock from that tank.
Be careful and watch, what is going on in the tank.
Prodibio sounds very promising, but I can't try it right now.
- I tried RDSB 6" in big (25" long) hang-on refugium, with skimmer before sand bed. It was supposed to remove the dissolved organics and small particles, so DSB will be clean. Well, it wasn't. Had to disassemble eventually. Again, just watch what going on before it is too late.
- for some reason GFO (PhosBan and RowaPhos) didn't removed phosphates in my tanks, if used just in the bags in the sump, like the aluminum-based granules (PhosGuard) do. PhosBan reactor should give better results, than the bag in high flow.
Seems, it's all I had to say.
Can anybody give example of their Miracle Mud system, used in NPS tank?
tonyespinoza:
Thank you for the information, very interesting. What amount of RofiFeast are you giving?
My systems, as it seems, have idiosyncrasy to colloids and phytoplancton .
You understand, that I don't know what you already tried and know, so bear with me
:- one more thread, Primary means of filtration?, to see what other non-photosynthetic keepers are using,
- there are 3 groups of food (dry, frozen, bottled with high liquid content) that in my humble experience affect water quality at different degree, dry - less, not the smallest frozen could be washed before feeding (to reduce the dissolved organics, which is not noticeably consumed), and RotiFeast-like, with high colloid-like content - it couldn't be washed, and this part couldn't be consumed, at least in my tanks. Phytoplankton use depends, again, on how many inhabitants are able to use it, otherwise it fouls water, if not removed by skimmer or probiotic system.
- The skimmers mentioned in successful cases are not just oversized (to 7x to the tank size), I tried this. They are working efficiently. At least I have no other explanation, why my skimmers don't do the job, and theirs - do.
Different skimmers react differently on dry and frozen food, and are resuming skimming with quite different interval after feeding and/or after being turned off.
- many use - in addition to the efficient skimmer - ozone and/or some probiotic system. Way to export nutrients by growing, harvesting and removing bacteria. It could be vodka, sugar, Reef-Fresh Complete, Prodibio BioKit Reef and Prodibio Bio Digest Rebalance Nitrates/Phosphates, Red Sea ProtoBac and maybe others.
The problem with them is removing bacterial bodies from the tank, not letting them to settle on walls, rock, anything in the tank. Supposedly skimmers should do that, mine didn't. I lost volitan lionfish when started dosing vodka (no overdosing and aeration was added), sugar only clouded water without affecting nitrates and phosphates (sorry, I'm not interested in talking why, only how to), after ProtoBac I'm now cooking live rock from that tank.
Be careful and watch, what is going on in the tank.
Prodibio sounds very promising, but I can't try it right now.
- I tried RDSB 6" in big (25" long) hang-on refugium, with skimmer before sand bed. It was supposed to remove the dissolved organics and small particles, so DSB will be clean. Well, it wasn't. Had to disassemble eventually. Again, just watch what going on before it is too late.
- for some reason GFO (PhosBan and RowaPhos) didn't removed phosphates in my tanks, if used just in the bags in the sump, like the aluminum-based granules (PhosGuard) do. PhosBan reactor should give better results, than the bag in high flow.
Seems, it's all I had to say.
Can anybody give example of their Miracle Mud system, used in NPS tank?
tonyespinoza:
Thank you for the information, very interesting. What amount of RofiFeast are you giving?
My systems, as it seems, have idiosyncrasy to colloids and phytoplancton
.
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tonyespinoza
Premium Member
couple additional comments -
skimmer size is tricky too large and they don't skim if there's not enough nutrients --supposedly the new conical shaped skimmers have a broader range (see ATB, including their new smaller HOB and KZ).
i am dosing 5ml of rotofeast per serving 4 times a day per 45G.
skimmer size is tricky too large and they don't skim if there's not enough nutrients --supposedly the new conical shaped skimmers have a broader range (see ATB, including their new smaller HOB and KZ).
i am dosing 5ml of rotofeast per serving 4 times a day per 45G.
reefkeeper2
Premium Member
I am presently running my system pretty much the way Charles Mathews recommends with a few exceptions. I feed for a 10-12 hour interval during the night with a syringe pump. During the day, the skimmer recovers and removes a lot of black skimmate. So far the only change in parameters is that the nitrate has climbed from undetectable to around 1.0 measured with a salifert kit. This is the highest I have seen in my tank. I increased the vodka dosage from 9 to 9.5 ml per day 2 days ago. I will retest this weekend. Charles, why is it important to have your nitates detectable?
reefkeeper...
I imagine is important dont fall in N or P limitation...
dendro 982...
With vodka I have seen changes in the bacterial (bacteria-fungus)
host in some fishes... the tank system was ok... only little problems in 2 fishes
Probably your volitants fall in a bacterial infection...
I dont want this become in a comercial treat...
comercial probiotic systems are based in two carbon sources:
etanol and acetate... and you add bacterial strains... this is good for not raising other bad strains and fall in ill...
I am agree with all...
And I have the feeling that Dsb systems and vegetable fuges in the beggining are wonderfull but in several months nutrients go up and is very dificult eliminate them then...
BB systems+probiotic system I dont know if in long time they be able to keep low nutrients... your advantage is that you see day to day how are coming nutrients and if you cant fight with it daily, you will not fight with stored nutrients later...
This is the BB system+probiotic system+chaeto in BB fuge of my friend Dani from Granada (I call him "The man who spoke with the corals")
He only run carbon and aluminium phosguard for 1-2 days if phosphorous go up...
his system didnt crass by nutrients...
Unafortunatelly he had to stay long times travelling away his home and he had problems for feeding and this was his system crash...
http://www.e-coralia.net/panel/showthread.php?t=3156&highlight=ultralith
PD: ultrabak faune marine is very bad you only can add half doses. with the full doses algae go up... Then you are lossing half power of the carbon sources...
Another friend of mine "The spanish Dark Lord", my friend joanxavier runs natural systems, super vegetable refugiums and sand bed systems and after several months nutrients go up...
I imagine is important dont fall in N or P limitation...
dendro 982...
With vodka I have seen changes in the bacterial (bacteria-fungus)
host in some fishes... the tank system was ok... only little problems in 2 fishes
Probably your volitants fall in a bacterial infection...
I dont want this become in a comercial treat...
comercial probiotic systems are based in two carbon sources:
etanol and acetate... and you add bacterial strains... this is good for not raising other bad strains and fall in ill...
I am agree with all...
And I have the feeling that Dsb systems and vegetable fuges in the beggining are wonderfull but in several months nutrients go up and is very dificult eliminate them then...
BB systems+probiotic system I dont know if in long time they be able to keep low nutrients... your advantage is that you see day to day how are coming nutrients and if you cant fight with it daily, you will not fight with stored nutrients later...
This is the BB system+probiotic system+chaeto in BB fuge of my friend Dani from Granada (I call him "The man who spoke with the corals")
He only run carbon and aluminium phosguard for 1-2 days if phosphorous go up...
his system didnt crass by nutrients...
Unafortunatelly he had to stay long times travelling away his home and he had problems for feeding and this was his system crash...
http://www.e-coralia.net/panel/showthread.php?t=3156&highlight=ultralith
PD: ultrabak faune marine is very bad you only can add half doses. with the full doses algae go up... Then you are lossing half power of the carbon sources...
Another friend of mine "The spanish Dark Lord", my friend joanxavier runs natural systems, super vegetable refugiums and sand bed systems and after several months nutrients go up...
reefkeeper2
Premium Member
Can you post a link for that tutorial?
Be carefull...
the amounts of food of spanish dark lord (joanxavier) are very very big...
many tanks doesnt handle this amount in short time...
We have not a long time filtration system for this amounts of food...
tutorials:
feeding non photosinthetic gorgonians
http://www.e-coralia.net/panel/showthread.php?t=1436
feeding tubastreas, fungias, caulastreas
http://www.e-coralia.net/panel/showthread.php?t=1064
important treats
http://www.e-coralia.net/panel/forumdisplay.php?f=20
filtration system
http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=247971
the amounts of food of spanish dark lord (joanxavier) are very very big...
many tanks doesnt handle this amount in short time...
We have not a long time filtration system for this amounts of food...
tutorials:
feeding non photosinthetic gorgonians
http://www.e-coralia.net/panel/showthread.php?t=1436
feeding tubastreas, fungias, caulastreas
http://www.e-coralia.net/panel/showthread.php?t=1064
important treats
http://www.e-coralia.net/panel/forumdisplay.php?f=20
filtration system
http://www.drpez.net/panel/showthread.php?t=247971
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reefkeeper2
Premium Member
Thanks. Looks like good info. I need to find a way to translate it.
Go to the Google, in options there are Language tools. Copy-paste URL of the page in the place for url at the bottom, languages: Spanish to English.
There is also BabelFish at AltaVista, if I'm not mistaken, but this is what I used for translation.
Jk5:
If it is possible, ask joanxvier, Dany from Granada and anybody, who keeps non-photosynthetic corals, to tell how they set the filtration, flow and feeding. In addition to the links above.
In Spanish on Spanish forum will be good too, automatic translation works well.
Thank you.
There is also BabelFish at AltaVista, if I'm not mistaken, but this is what I used for translation.
Jk5:
If it is possible, ask joanxvier, Dany from Granada and anybody, who keeps non-photosynthetic corals, to tell how they set the filtration, flow and feeding. In addition to the links above.
In Spanish on Spanish forum will be good too, automatic translation works well.
Thank you.
Last edited:
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