Fish dying within hours in QT

[adova]

This isn't my first time going through QT, but I keep losing fish within hours of introducing them to QT.

A few weeks back I got a number of small fish and put them in a 20L with a HOB (with a plan to do TTM). The fish were from LiveAquaria and came in with a 1.020 salinity for which I drip acclimated to match the 1.025 of the QT over a couple of hours.Within a few hours a few were dead and most looked very bad. Within 48 hours all were dead. I was thinking that the ammonia buildup during the acclimation was probably to blame.

Yesterday, I tried again with fish from the LFS. The fish included 8 chromis, 1 royal gramma (small), 2 very small clowns, and a diamond goby. This time I did not have to acclimate for the salinity. Within 3 hours, the royal gramma was on his side and all of the fish has very rapid breathing. I immediately put all of the fish into a 55g QT I had that was housing a single fire fish. Every fish seems very happy and healthy now.

My question is this: is a 20L too small to do TTM on this many fish (considering their size)? I am shocked that they could have O2 problems within such a short time. Any other thoughts?

Shawn

 

[RayAllen3422]

Have you ready the sticky from Sk8tr on acclimation?

 

[RayAllen3422]

***Acclimation: Any NEW FISH or INVERT: NEW: CHECK THIS OUT
1. FOR A FISH: Ask your dealer what his Salinity is, and set your quarantine tank to that, precisely. The minute you open your bag, test the water to be sure he's right, and that you are, within .001 of a salinity-match; and a quick ph check is not a bad thing either---(if your ph should be bad (remember bag-water ph starts shifting the second the bag is opened) or if the salinity is not what you were told it was, a drip acclimation may be your only resort, especially if you have an especially fragile species at issue. Be sure and be done within 30 minutes!) If all ok, however, and salinity matches and ph is within acceptable range, put your new fish straight over into the qt tank with no drip, no delay at all. You may now adjust his salinity slowly over the next day or so to match the salinity of your display. PH will tend to take care of itself, but with fragile specimens, test and, once your fish is in qt, just go slowly with water-matching: the emergency is all about getting him out of that bag. Once in qt everything can proceed safely and slowly.



2. Keep your new fish in that quarantine for 4 weeks before putting him into your tank, and this applies to your very first fish---for the sake of that tank you so laboriously cycled. Because the ich parasite burrows under the skin and into the gills, this is not 100% guaranteed, but it's the best precaution you can take; and the stress of transport will likely cause it to break out in the next few weeks if it is going to do so.



3. do not buy from a tank that has ich. Do not pity-buy. A sick fish is not for a beginner.



4. never trade nets or wet hands or instruments between quarantine tank and your regular tank.



A) Setting up a quarantine tank: a completely bare tank with no sand, rock, or strong light, just a pvc elbow and an air-driven carbon floss filter, thermometer and heater. Mark your proper water level on the glass with tape, and keep the water there with freshwater topoff. Test daily for nitrate/ammonia, and do a 20% saltwater change once weekly, or sooner if you spot ammonia. Put a square of plastic lighting grid (Lowe's) or a finer mesh over the top to prevent your fish jumping out. [Some like to play in the bubbles---or spook and jump.]



B) IF YOU SEE DISEASE and need to treat: first identify the disease/parasite. Go to the "Fish Disease" forum and ask. Photos help. REMOVE THE CARBON IF YOU ARE GOING TO MEDICATE. Continue filtration. Medicate or use hyposalinity. "Fish Disease" has precise instructions for you, and help in identifying the pest. If you spot ich in your main tank, you need to withdraw all FISH to treatment immediately and leave the tank 8 weeks without fish. Inverts are ok. Part of the ich life cycle is in sand, but after 8 weeks, it dies out due to no fish for it to live on.



C) INVERTS: corals of any sort should be dipped. Ask your dealer, and prepare a dip. Use it. You may then put your coral into an observation tank (safer) for a week. Other inverts should be drip-acclimated (small amounts of your tank water mixed with the bag water until .001 match) but the process should be completed within 30 minutes. Ammonia starts to build the instant the bag is open. You want your new critter out of there in a balance between salinity match and speed. On no account leave any critter in an opened bag longer than 30 minutes.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17978768

 

[adova]

Thanks, but I am not sure how any of this applies to my post, though. The 30 min max may apply to the first case but not the second...

 

[foxt]

With a reaction that fast, it could be QT water quality, especially since the fish recovered when you moved them to a different tank. You didn't mention your other parameters - are they ok? How long has the 20L been set up? What do you have in the HOB?

 

[CStrickland]

Is your refractometer calibrated with 35ppt fluid?
Is there anything in the 20L for flow besides the filter, like a nano powerhead?
Did you acclimate for temp too? Long drips can get very chilly, and I lost a couple chromis from doing too large a water change, I think they can't take more than a few degrees difference.
You aren't cleaning the 20 before use with anything strong like bleach, right?
I've had much better luck matching the qt sg to the bag than vice versa. It's easy to add fw to bring it down so you can just float for temp and dump them in.
I always toss in a capful of prime as for security against ammonia.

Just a couple thoughts.

 

[anthonys51]

you really put 11 new fish in a 20 gallon time with no bio-filter and your asking what went wrong

 

[adova]

you really put 11 new fish in a 20 gallon time with no bio-filter and your asking what went wrong

The HOB was seeded with filter floss from the DT...

 

[anthonys51]

how long was the filter floss in the tank. takes a month about for bacteria to grow to numbers to sustain things. also would have to be a large amount also 11 fish is a lot of fish

plus salinity i believe has to be the same, as does temp ph and stuff.

the bacteria that grows in brackish water and the one that grows in arctic ocean is different bacteria. they do the same thing, but different types.

 

[adova]

Is your refractometer calibrated with 35ppt fluid?
Is there anything in the 20L for flow besides the filter, like a nano powerhead?
Did you acclimate for temp too? Long drips can get very chilly, and I lost a couple chromis from doing too large a water change, I think they can't take more than a few degrees difference.
You aren't cleaning the 20 before use with anything strong like bleach, right?
I've had much better luck matching the qt sg to the bag than vice versa. It's easy to add fw to bring it down so you can just float for temp and dump them in.
I always toss in a capful of prime as for security against ammonia.

Just a couple thoughts.

I usually put in a 4" air disc. Although in this case I had not gotten to that yet.

I re-floated the fish in a new bag for 15 mins after the drip. But the second set of fish was a no-drip.

No - the tanks are just cleaned with tap water and dried for a couple of days.

I also use a capful of prime.

I am sure the first loss was due to the long acclimation period and then again perhaps aggravated by the small tank.

 

[adova]

how long was the filter floss in the tank. takes a month about for bacteria to grow to numbers to sustain things. also would have to be a large amount also 11 fish is a lot of fish

plus salinity i believe has to be the same, as does temp ph and stuff.

the bacteria that grows in brackish water and the one that grows in arctic ocean is different bacteria. they do the same thing, but different types.

It had been in there for a couple of months in preparation for this.

I understand the concern that 11 fish is a lot, and I would normally agree that that is too many, but 9 are no bigger than a nickel and one a quarter and the last a smallish diamond goby.

Was I incorrect to assume that fish size was relative to bio load?

 

[anthonys51]

did you even test for ammonia or have a strip to make sure it didnt spike

 

[anthonys51]

i would bet money it was ammonia poisoning. just my opinion

 

[adova]

did you even test for ammonia or have a strip to make sure it didnt spike

The ammonia test shows dead "0". The TDS from the RODI is a 1 currently, but I would doubt that would be a factor.

I suppose, for this round, I will just use the 55g for TTM, although that will be a huge pain to make that much water every 3 days.

As far as the problem, for now I will chalk it up to poor oxygen in the water until I can find a better explanation...

 

[anthonys51]

poor oxygen might be the problem, causing the ph to drop to fast in tank. that is a possibility. did you see the fish on the top of the tank gasping for air at all

 

[foxt]

As far as the problem, for now I will chalk it up to poor oxygen in the water until I can find a better explanation...

I tend to agree with you that those 11 fish should not have caused an oxygen problem in a 20L within such a short period of time, not with water moving through an HOB. The ammonia is 0 now - did you test it after you moved the fish? If your basic water parameters are not to blame, it might be some other kind of contamination. You might consider draining it, cleaning it and the filter, and then refilling before trying again ... it's only 20g ...

 

[anthonys51]

what caused it might be up for debate, but what isn't is not a good idea to put 11 fish in a 20 gallon tank all at once. not saying you didn't do precautions, but that's just too many fish at once for matter how small they are. personally with the ttm i wouldn't use filter floss from main tank. might still have ich in it, just because your fish isn't showing signs doesn't mean there is no ich in tank. its hard to have everything run fallow for 72 days. every crab, frag rock

 

[adova]

what caused it might be up for debate, but what isn't is not a good idea to put 11 fish in a 20 gallon tank all at once. not saying you didn't do precautions, but that's just too many fish at once for matter how small they are. personally with the ttm i wouldn't use filter floss from main tank. might still have ich in it, just because your fish isn't showing signs doesn't mean there is no ich in tank. its hard to have everything run fallow for 72 days. every crab, frag rock

If you assume that the DT may have ich then there is no point in doing a TTM on new arrivals. Otherwise they will just get infected once you put them in...

 

[anthonys51]

your right i shouldn't assume. so have you ran fallow for 72 days everything you put into your tank, or did the ttm method on everything added to your tank.

 

[Mrs. Music]

It sounds like something like contamination poisoning was going on. That was a pretty fast demise, but also those are some very tiny, as in fragile sized fish, IME.