Fishery closures

[Fin Mike]

I just wanted to get some opinions on what you all think about the prohibition of harvesting certain commercially valuable species.

Here on the east coast, the government has shut down the harvest of many species including the black sea bass. If any of you have dove off the southern east coast, you can attest to the absolute sheer numbers of these fish. The BSB season was only open for less than five months. This closure, among many others species closures, has effected not only the fisherman who harvest the resource, but also the "head boats" that charter to tourist looking to catch fish.

I want to get some opinions from those who know something about this issue. Do you think that the South Atlantic Marine Fisheries Council (SAMFC) is doing there "best" to preserve the resource, or do you believe it is a direct assault on your rights to harvest what you want within the confines of state law? Is this another example of the government taking your freedoms away?

Let the discussion begin!

 

[Barto]

all valid questions

*possibly* treading on the wrong side of the "no political discussions" part of that darned pesky user agreement

 

[Rockys_Pride]

When does lion season start?

 

[Barto]

When does lion season start?

3 weeks after wolf season ends

:lol:

 

[BlueCorn]

Sorry, but no one has the "right" to fish a species to extinction. According to worldwide surveys, 90% of the oceans large, mature, fish are gone. Those were the anchors of the food chain.

 

[BlueCorn]

[moved]

 

[Fin Mike]

where is the current forum? ........... I seemed to have found it.

 

[Fin Mike]

all valid questions

*possibly* treading on the wrong side of the "no political discussions" part of that darned pesky user agreement

I can see how this could morph into a political discussion, but that is not my intention. Please keep it apolitical and tell me what you think.

The ocean is a very large body of water. How could we ever take a census of a population of fish unless it is endemic to only one area.

I agree nobody has the "right" to fish a species to extinction, but what methods are used to determine whether a species is in jeopardy or not?

 

[Rascalson]

Sorry but to borrow a common internet meme both sides of this discussion "Needs Citation"

 

[DanK13]

Im not sure about where you live but here in Massachusetts Black Sea Bass is open season right now until April 30. With only 1% of the states quota being met so far.

 

[billsreef]

I just wanted to get some opinions on what you all think about the prohibition of harvesting certain commercially valuable species.

Here on the east coast, the government has shut down the harvest of many species including the black sea bass. If any of you have dove off the southern east coast, you can attest to the absolute sheer numbers of these fish. The BSB season was only open for less than five months. This closure, among many others species closures, has effected not only the fisherman who harvest the resource, but also the "head boats" that charter to tourist looking to catch fish.

I want to get some opinions from those who know something about this issue. Do you think that the South Atlantic Marine Fisheries Council (SAMFC) is doing there "best" to preserve the resource, or do you believe it is a direct assault on your rights to harvest what you want within the confines of state law? Is this another example of the government taking your freedoms away?

Let the discussion begin!

I've seen Striped Bass practically fished out of existence. A resulting moratorium on commercial fishing and severe catch limits and size restrictions placed on rec fishing placed a lot of temporary pain on both the commerical recreational guys, but guess what? The Striped Bass populations recovered and there is now a strong fishery for them, both commercial and rec. So closures can work.

In regards to Black Sea Bass, there is apparently a dichotomy between offshore (federal waters) and inshore (state waters) populations sizes. This is leading to some disagreement between fisherman and regulatory authorities. Though I haven't kept up to date with latest info, so I'm not sure where things stand right now with that fishery.

The ocean is a very large body of water. How could we ever take a census of a population of fish unless it is endemic to only one area.

I agree nobody has the "right" to fish a species to extinction, but what methods are used to determine whether a species is in jeopardy or not?

Survey methods are indeed somewhat imprecise, but barring draining the oceans and manually counting every fish, are the best we have to work with. One of the primary methods is the old catch effort routine. Basically go out with a trawler utilizing a given size net and fish for a determined length of time at random spots in the survey area. The catch is then sorted, everything determined down to species (with the occasional miscellaneous oddball), a percentage of each species is measured and weighed and samples taken for aging. Then the numbers are crunched back at the lab. At a lot of statistical modeling is used, and is growing sector of fisheries science. Another interesting areas of fisheries science used for surveys is acustcis. The acustical work going is twofold, some fish get acustical tags implanted, and when they swim past receives in the field, their movements are tracked. Acustical imaging is also big now. Sonar imaging is to the point that you can actually generate sonar images that precise to identify most large fish. A few weeks ago I was helping a student run some trials with a Didson off of our floating dock. I was actually able to identify the Seargant Major that hangs out under the dock, just based on the image quality. So survey techniques are definitely improving, as are the computer models being used.

 

[doctorgori]

I can see how this could morph into a political discussion, but that is not my intention

now why would we do that?

Is this another example of the government taking your freedoms away?

sorta a "political segway" no ^

But yeah I don't like mixing politics with my hobby anymore than the next guy

Any, a lil while ago the Canadians complained exactly as you are doing (and won) about a quota on Cod ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Northern_Cod_Fishery

Chilean Sea bass and orange roughy will join them soon

might also wanna check out "Blue Pike", along with a number of extinct freshwater whitefishes and cisco's ....you can easily collapes a fishery even if it looks like there are plenty to be had...

 

[Fin Mike]

[/QUOTE]Survey methods are indeed somewhat imprecise, but barring draining the oceans and manually counting every fish, are the best we have to work with. One of the primary methods is the old catch effort routine. Basically go out with a trawler utilizing a given size net and fish for a determined length of time at random spots in the survey area. The catch is then sorted, everything determined down to species (with the occasional miscellaneous oddball), a percentage of each species is measured and weighed and samples taken for aging. Then the numbers are crunched back at the lab. At a lot of statistical modeling is used, and is growing sector of fisheries science. Another interesting areas of fisheries science used for surveys is acustcis. The acustical work going is twofold, some fish get acustical tags implanted, and when they swim past receives in the field, their movements are tracked. Acustical imaging is also big now. Sonar imaging is to the point that you can actually generate sonar images that precise to identify most large fish. A few weeks ago I was helping a student run some trials with a Didson off of our floating dock. I was actually able to identify the Seargant Major that hangs out under the dock, just based on the image quality. So survey techniques are definitely improving, as are the computer models being used.[/QUOTE]

I was fortunate enough to be able to speak with a DNR biologist at a restaurant a little while ago. We were basically chit chating about the snapper/ grouper population here off the Atlantic coast. I was asking her about the survey techniques they use and how often she was able to visually see, and count the population of the various "shallow water" grouper and red snapper. I was extremely surprised to hear that she never even dons a mask and tank. I couldn't believe it. What she was telling me about her "surveys" was completely at odds with what my own eyes have seen. She said her research has shown that the grouper populations are in decline and there hasn't been much of a rebound of the red snapper population despite the fact that there is a moratorium on their harvest. I say bullocks! (I'm not even British) I've never seen as many large mature red snapper as I saw this past season. I also selectively harvested (shot) more grouper and hogfish, this past season than I have in a long time . Now I admit that this is all anecdotal, but I don't think IMO their "best available data" isn't much better.

My point is this. The rule makers set policy based upon "studies" that have been easily discredited (video evidence shot by members of the Fishermans Rights Alliance FRA) and say they do it because their "best available data" (data they paid for) compels them to do so.

As a spearfisherman, I want to do everything I can to preserve all marine life so the resource can be sustained for the generations. However, when your eyes tell you one thing, and bodies such as the South Atlantic Marine Fisheries Council are telling you another, you have to ask yourself why. Furthermore, when a fishery such as the Black Sea Bass is shut down for more months than its open, you just plain lose respect for the whole process. When you can't even bottom fish in waters deeper than 243 ft because of fear you might catch a warsaw grouper as bycatch, I say they are just plainly taking away your most basic freedoms. What is next, and where does it stop?

If I'm wrong, convince me otherwise. I'm open minded. Let the debate continue.

 

[KafudaFish]

1. What is the overall picture of those fish species?

2. Are these mature adults found throughout their range or are they localized?

3. Are these the breeding population?

4. How have the YOY been doing the last 5 years?

5. Could your good season be the result of these limits and now you are seeing the results?

6. One person's eyes provides a limited view of the situation. A better profile would be to talk to the charter boats or find out from a fishing rodeo how things have changed over the years.

7. Population models require huge amounts of data and the software to spit a value out. There maybe 20 factors being put into the equation and if you shift one such as the percent of breeders by say 1 - 5% then you could get a shift in the future population levels.


Red snapper populations have been in decline since the early 90's and probably before. I use to help with a study on the use of artifical reefs and snapper colonization over time and distance from the source. Not really sure the status today but it doesn't sound like much has changed unfortunately.

 

[billsreef]

For the those without some fisheries background, YOY = Young Of the Year. Which is used to figure recruitment rates.

Fin Mike, I'm short of time right now, but will try and remember to come back to this later today to touch on some of your comments.

 

[billsreef]

Got a bit of time for the moment.

One of the major things happening to create this apparent discrepancy between fisherman's observations and fisheries researchers has to do with targeting. We've (mankind) have gotten much better at targeting the fish. Between cumulative knowledge about where the fish are likely to be at a given time of year and amazing technology that is available to the consumer, both rec and commercial fisherman, allow us to really target fish. Couldn't do this nearly so well all of 20 years ago. This modern ability gives us a "look, see there's lots of fish" outlook. With the fisheries survey methods, they use the same base survey methods for years on end...this allows them to compare data that can actually be compared on a year to year basis.

Just to use an example of Fluke from my native Long Island waters. The science says their numbers are down, the fisherman keep trying to say their numbers are up. I know several spots that I can dive and guarantee seeing Fluke, which would give the appearance that there are plenty of Fluke. However, I've also spent a lot of diving areas were Fluke sightings are common, but not guaranteed. Those areas I've seen a drastic decline in Fluke sightings...sort of supports the fisheries data.