shabreeson
New member
i know that flame breeding has been done before, but how is that when i have been warned not to have even two in a 150 gallon tank?
flame angel
- Thread starter shabreeson
- Start date
Because most folks dont either provide space for a number of them in a tank, or let one get established then add another(s).
Flames are territorial, and despite size want more space then their size would indicate, so if there is more then one you need first lots of refuge spaces, and I wouldnt reccommend less then a 55 although some start off with a nanocube as Matt has, or a 29.
The best way to get started is with 3-4 small ones in a 55 or 75 with lots of hiding spaces, this is what I am doing this fall. It also helps if its a well established tank with lots of algaes and 'pods.
Be careful with the macroalgae selection, I lost 3 several years ago when the grape caulerpa imploded overnight and fouled the tank. Right now I am weighing having a refugium for this tank with chaeto. If I go all the way with present plans it will set beside another similar sized tank with Tomato clowns and the tanks will share the refugium..
Anyhow, for multiple Flames, start young and put them in the tank at the same time, have a bigger tank, with LOTS of refuge and you should be able to establish one or more pairs/breeding groups. Good luck.
Flames are territorial, and despite size want more space then their size would indicate, so if there is more then one you need first lots of refuge spaces, and I wouldnt reccommend less then a 55 although some start off with a nanocube as Matt has, or a 29.
The best way to get started is with 3-4 small ones in a 55 or 75 with lots of hiding spaces, this is what I am doing this fall. It also helps if its a well established tank with lots of algaes and 'pods.
Be careful with the macroalgae selection, I lost 3 several years ago when the grape caulerpa imploded overnight and fouled the tank. Right now I am weighing having a refugium for this tank with chaeto. If I go all the way with present plans it will set beside another similar sized tank with Tomato clowns and the tanks will share the refugium..
Anyhow, for multiple Flames, start young and put them in the tank at the same time, have a bigger tank, with LOTS of refuge and you should be able to establish one or more pairs/breeding groups. Good luck.
shabreeson
New member
thanks for the reply, really helpfull
mwp
In Memoriam
I have to just jump in and say that while I have 2 flames currently coexisting in the 24 gallon cube, it's a) experimental and b) not been long enough to say for certain that it will work. So far other than some minor fin damage the 2 are doing OK, but I haven't seen any of the affiliatory interactions one might expect between a true pair (i.e. staying TOGETHER, currently the larger one would best be described as only "tolerating" the little one but giving chase fairly often). I did add them at the same time and used a large size discrepency as the criteria for chosing the two I'm working with.
FWIW,
Matt
FWIW,
Matt
Luis A M
Premium Member
jake,I could only hatch some.Check:http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=694784&highlight=flavissimus
Raising them is currently off limits for hobbyists
or for anybody other than some few Hawaiians.
Raising them is currently off limits for hobbyists
or for anybody other than some few Hawaiians.Hi Luis
thanks for posting that link, couldnt get a search done, I need to get my member made a premium. I'm still trying to get used to it being registered.
Anyhow, tons of good info there, several years at least of time saved.
I think you need more optimism amigo , you're not hardly a 'most hobbyist'. Raise a few and you too can price them at $ 600-800 each.
Were yours in with any corals ? My last one was kind of rough on some.
thanks for posting that link, couldnt get a search done, I need to get my member made a premium. I'm still trying to get used to it being registered.
Anyhow, tons of good info there, several years at least of time saved.
I think you need more optimism amigo , you're not hardly a 'most hobbyist'. Raise a few and you too can price them at $ 600-800 each.
Were yours in with any corals ? My last one was kind of rough on some.
Luis A M
Premium Member
I am optimistic in a realistic way
I am stubborn and follow the theory that if you can take a lot of failures some day you hit a good ball,just by sheer luck!
Pigmy angels are not impossible,but they are the most difficult ornamental marines ever raised.
So I´m mostly in the "one step at a time"mode.
Though time is limited,as you rightfully point out
I am stubborn and follow the theory that if you can take a lot of failures some day you hit a good ball,just by sheer luck!
Pigmy angels are not impossible,but they are the most difficult ornamental marines ever raised.
So I´m mostly in the "one step at a time"mode.
Though time is limited,as you rightfully point out
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
Re: flame angel
Pairing angels can be as simple as plopping a male & female in the tank together - compare that to pairing maroon clowns, say
There is lots of bad information out there. Also lots of old information....I would say keeping multiple species of angels and/or pairs has only recently been gaining wide acceptance since the release of S.Michael's 2004 book Angelfishes & Butterflyfishes. Before that it was a bit of a no-no to all but a relatively smaller group of the initiated.
Pairing angels can be as simple as plopping a male & female in the tank together - compare that to pairing maroon clowns, say
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
Re: Re: flame angel
Re: Re: flame angel
IMHO a tank this size will not meet the nutritional needs of even 1 flame angel as it needs to graze the rock in addition to the food you give it.
In addition, I promise you in a tank this size these two fish are quite stressed. And it's so small --- it possibly might not even be any kind of 'test' as to whether or not they would get along once given a humane sized space.
Paired flame angels don't swim "TOGETHER" all day.
Re: Re: flame angel
IMHO a tank this size will not meet the nutritional needs of even 1 flame angel as it needs to graze the rock in addition to the food you give it.
In addition, I promise you in a tank this size these two fish are quite stressed. And it's so small --- it possibly might not even be any kind of 'test' as to whether or not they would get along once given a humane sized space.
Paired flame angels don't swim "TOGETHER" all day.
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sonofgaladriel
Shiny!
I've had a 3 inch flame angel in my 240 for about 8 months. I love these fish and would really like to add another, both for asthetic and for potential bonding issues.
The tank is about 14 months old, with most of the rock, water, and corals comming from a 180 that was 4 years old. The tank is heavily stocked so there is ample hiding places for the new angel.
Would it be unwise to add a smaller one or perhaps a larger one to the tank at this point?
I'd really like to have another flame in there but won't if advised against it.
The tank is about 14 months old, with most of the rock, water, and corals comming from a 180 that was 4 years old. The tank is heavily stocked so there is ample hiding places for the new angel.
Would it be unwise to add a smaller one or perhaps a larger one to the tank at this point?
I'd really like to have another flame in there but won't if advised against it.
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
Flames are easy to pair - the hard part is to find a female or juvenile. If you have a relationship with your LFS see if they'll hunt one down for you. IME they tend to forget about it unless you pay in advance - but maybe your relationship is better than mine
. The next step would be to try an online supplier. If none of that works, it seems like I remember a link Wayne in Norway or maybe LargeAngels gave me to an online supplier kind enough to bother with finding juvenile angels. It was a while back... Your existing flame is likely a male, even if it's not adding a juvenile half its size should result in a male/female pair. you have the issue that your male flame is the first fish established -- if he is too agressive initially make a little "box" that the new fish can swim in & out of that the male can't get into.
Alternately, you can place him in a quarantine tank a few days after the new fish is at home in it. (This should not be a hospital style tank - it should have some live rock and hiding places) There should be no problems.
You will see chasing behavior that establishes who the boss is. But if the female stays "trapped" up in a corner of the tank more than a day, they should be separated - but this is not likely if adding them at the same time.
sonofgaladriel
Shiny!
Thank you very much!
mwp
In Memoriam
Re: Re: Re: flame angel
Re: Re: Re: flame angel
I've heard this all before time and again with regards to Synchiropus splendidus. Not to sound perturbed, but "hogwash"! http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=824111
First and foremost, confined spaces MAGNIFY compatibility issues. If they get along in the 24, the should get along in a "humane" sized space (assuming you're notion of a humane sized space is something significantly larger than a 24 gallon cube).
I've also heard this with regards to one of my other 24 gallon cubes, which currently has actively breeding pairs of Bangaiis, GBG's, the Rev. Trio of Leptacanthus, up until two days ago a pair of Firefish (one finally lived up to their reputation as a jumper), a pair of S. stellatus and my spare S. synchiropus female (that's currently 12, at it's peak it had 14 fish in it).
The general "notions" of what's possible / humane / comfortable...well if half the species in the tank are regularly spawning, as an aquarist that's a good sign that the fish are healthy and comfortable in the environment provided. I'd never turn around and suggest that anyone can simply add 14 fish to a 24 gallon nanocube and get away with it - guidelines are out there to prevent the less experienced from making mistakes.
Let's just say I like to test the limits...experimentation yields learning.
FWIW,
Matt
Re: Re: Re: flame angel
I've heard this all before time and again with regards to Synchiropus splendidus. Not to sound perturbed, but "hogwash"! http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=824111
First and foremost, confined spaces MAGNIFY compatibility issues. If they get along in the 24, the should get along in a "humane" sized space (assuming you're notion of a humane sized space is something significantly larger than a 24 gallon cube).
I've also heard this with regards to one of my other 24 gallon cubes, which currently has actively breeding pairs of Bangaiis, GBG's, the Rev. Trio of Leptacanthus, up until two days ago a pair of Firefish (one finally lived up to their reputation as a jumper), a pair of S. stellatus and my spare S. synchiropus female (that's currently 12, at it's peak it had 14 fish in it).
The general "notions" of what's possible / humane / comfortable...well if half the species in the tank are regularly spawning, as an aquarist that's a good sign that the fish are healthy and comfortable in the environment provided. I'd never turn around and suggest that anyone can simply add 14 fish to a 24 gallon nanocube and get away with it - guidelines are out there to prevent the less experienced from making mistakes.
Let's just say I like to test the limits...experimentation yields learning.
FWIW,
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
Thankfully, my smaller fish has never been "pinned" in the corner, has it's own little hiding spots, and gets plenty of food. We're still having "chasing" issues though..I'd like to think that given a little more time that will subside as well and they'll settle into peaceful coexistence.
MP
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
IME posters who refer to other persons posts using words like "hogwash" generally tend to be the same ones who lack arguments to back up their positions -- either way I really don't appreciate it - I may be wrong, but calling my statement "hogwash" really doesn't help me listen to you.
In addition, the link you provided to explain your position has 37 pages --maybe you could direct me to the part that argues your point.
Anyway, I'm not sure what mandarins have to do with this ---- - I'm not sure if we're communicating - I'm not worried about the angels getting enough calories, I'm concerned that the fish foods we have don't provide the nutrients they need in the amounts & form in which they are designed to process it. I don't know of any fish foods containing diatoms, microalgae, detritus, flat growing sponges, coral slime & the occasional pod - basically Centropyge food.
My position is that to maintain robust healthy fish long term we should try to provide them this. I'm not saying they will die per se, though I'd imagine there could be a shortening of life.
Using the words "possibly" & "might", what I said was "And it's so small --- it possibly might not even be any kind of 'test' as to whether or not they would get along once given a humane sized space." I was referring to the possibilty that these fish might not react normally due to crowding (which I assume you have heard of as it is common practice in LFS) and that possibly once they are in a more spacious relaxed environment they might find issues of dominance suddenly more important. That said, if I was forced to vote on it, I'd say they are probably forming a pair and will be fine in a larger tank --- which I hope you will soon be providing.
I will never understand why anyone assumes that breeding is evidence of "a good sign that the fish are healthy and comfortable in the environment provided". Do you have to be healthy and comfortable to breed? OK, probably some animals do, but many animals don't. And I don't see what makes anyone decide that they know that these fish are breeding & therefore comfortable.
FWIW - IMO as a group, the best people to judge "comfortable" or lack of stress in a fish are divers and those who have observed them in large institutional aquariums. Not every diver - not every aquarium - lol
Angel*Fish
cats and large squashes
If the smaller fish has to constantly hide from the larger and , for lack of better word, seems worried about running into him all the time you could have 2 males. And sorry to keep harping on this but it could just be a tank size issue.
It is normal for the male to give the female a little chase when he runs into her in the tank. As the pair matures this "chase' will become more and more subtle - kind of like an old couple that always knows what the other is thinking.
If you post some good pictures of them from the side we might be able to sex them. Who knows maybe you could document sex change from male to female - - without any dissection, of course
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