Flow Through DSB

[S.A. Trev]

when we discuss things like dsb's it makes me realize why I love this science of ours so much, it never stops offering new avenues to explore

Trev

 

[Allmost]

Thanks all for you input and please keep it coming…….However, I really wanted to stay clear from the design of a “proper” DSB and how it functions. That can go on forever and lots of threads out there. So far we have reinforced all the things that I’ve read regarding the subject and in order to clarify the process (at least in my head) I would like to simplify things.

The first Question is will a DSB (just sand) added to a container reduce nitrates? May not be a simple yes/no answer, and maybe it is, but I would like to attempt to answer the question in a somewhat controlled manner. In order to answer that question I’m setting up the diagram above. Flow will be slow..VERY SLOW…Water will be flowing “through” the bed in order to isolate a sample for testing. And I’m hoping this would provide an answer to my question a lot sooner.

Hope that makes sense.

as much as I like what you are doing, it is not a correct way to examine this !

you want to test if DSB works or not, well perfect

your post sounded like me saying "I Want to try the whopper at BK, and see if it feels me up, so lets head down to KFC and test this out ! " well KFC is not BK

you want to test and see if DSB would work, yet you are setting up a fluidized bed !

we all know as a FACT that DSB in a bucket works. the argument is over HOW it works, you know what I mean ? its amazing that you want to try it, but you are experimenting on some other design, not DSB in a bucket


about the red color, lol, hmmm if it was up tome, I would try blowing smoke in the water lol

Trev :

I like your post about the worms, and that is what I was getting at, worms dont kill the bacteria, they actually help to get nutrition to the bacteria which are barried deep down (I may have spent too much time looking at my DSB )

side Q for bioload, how are you planning to stop the sand from leaving the tank on top ? also, are you planning to feed the tank with pre-filtered water ? (mechanical filter) or just water itself ? it would make more sense to feed it with pre-filtered water, since you do not want detritus getting trapped IN the DSB, detritus on TOP of DSB can be cleaned by little pods and worms and .. not the ones in the sand (well maybe eventually, but they will rot meanwhile)

 

[TheFishMan65]

Still confused after reading the Deep Sand Bed in a Bucket (DSBiB) thread the one thing I thought I got was no living organism to shift the sand. I sort of agree with what you are saying about worms, but sort of understand the adsortion (was that the right word?) idea also. I think I also read that after X time people with DSBiB did get some live organisms growing. Is that what your saying with mature slowly?

I am redesigning (upgrading) and I am thinking of adding, but like everyone else can't decide if they work. Or is that work for everyone but me? nobody but me? only people with clown fish? :hmm4: Sounds like there is some magic here. Allmost got a mirror to go with the smoke?

 

[S.A. Trev]

Trev :

I like your post about the worms, and that is what I was getting at, worms dont kill the bacteria, they actually help to get nutrition to the bacteria which are barried deep down (I may have spent too much time looking at my DSB )


Yeah dude me to, my family and visitors think I am crazy because I look at things growing in the sand and on rocks with a micro for hours so they think I have lost it, but hey if you wanna pick up a chick in a bar just chune her about the nitrogen cycle :wildone: it works everytime

 

[Allmost]

Still confused after reading the Deep Sand Bed in a Bucket (DSBiB) thread the one thing I thought I got was no living organism to shift the sand. I sort of agree with what you are saying about worms, but sort of understand the adsortion (was that the right word?) idea also. I think I also read that after X time people with DSBiB did get some live organisms growing. Is that what your saying with mature slowly?

I am redesigning (upgrading) and I am thinking of adding, but like everyone else can't decide if they work. Or is that work for everyone but me? nobody but me? only people with clown fish? :hmm4: Sounds like there is some magic here. Allmost got a mirror to go with the smoke?

well the absobsion part is totally different ! you dont want life forms to turn the sand around in that case.

in those systems, Sulfur will be build up in the DSB about 3" down, (yellow looking) and will work EXACTLY like a sulfure denitrator the risk with those systems is that IF the DSB is disturbed, hydrogen sulfide will get into water, which will kill everything. those systems need pre-filtered water so it carries no detritus, so no life form. they need to be replaced every couple of years (the DSB in my Fuge is now working like this)

 

[S.A. Trev]

Still confused after reading the Deep Sand Bed in a Bucket (DSBiB) thread the one thing I thought I got was no living organism to shift the sand. I sort of agree with what you are saying about worms, but sort of understand the adsortion (was that the right word?) idea also. I think I also read that after X time people with DSBiB did get some live organisms growing. Is that what your saying with mature slowly?

I am redesigning (upgrading) and I am thinking of adding, but like everyone else can't decide if they work. Or is that work for everyone but me? nobody but me? only people with clown fish? :hmm4: Sounds like there is some magic here. Allmost got a mirror to go with the smoke?

Dude your almost there I think the only piece of the puzzel yuour missing is that when they talk about sand sifting creatures they are not refering to the tiny worms we are but more the creatures like bristle stars and gobies and hermits those are the guys you dont want in your dsb but 95% of what grows naturaly in a dsb is what you want to grow there

Trev

 

[Allmost]

Trev :

I like your post about the worms, and that is what I was getting at, worms dont kill the bacteria, they actually help to get nutrition to the bacteria which are barried deep down (I may have spent too much time looking at my DSB )


Yeah dude me to, my family and visitors think I am crazy because I look at things growing in the sand and on rocks with a micro for hours so they think I have lost it, but hey if you wanna pick up a chick in a bar just chune her about the nitrogen cycle :wildone: it works everytime

HAHAHAHAH

cheers to that. Im an engineer, nothing interesting there, so when they ask what I do for fun and hobby , .... yea the convo doesnt end well haha

 

[Brian-1977]

I want to try a dsb on my first tank in the sump area. My quations is should I put cheato and other macro algae in there too?

 

[S.A. Trev]

I want to try a dsb on my first tank in the sump area. My quations is should I put cheato and other macro algae in there too?

I do have cheato in my dsb and it is a wonderfull place for pods to live and play and it does an great job of catching sediment aswell

 

[Allmost]

I want to try a dsb on my first tank in the sump area. My quations is should I put cheato and other macro algae in there too?

in my Fuge, I have 6" of DSB and cheato on top with 2 T5HO lights on it. lit 24/7

that being said, the cheato on top of DSB isnt that good I find :S
it will trap detritus in it, and will attract most of the life forms from the DSB to it. so they will eventually all leave the DSB and live in the cheato since that's where the food is

In my set up, I havent ran into Issues, although, I think the cheato has changed the operation of my DSB under it ! instead of being full of organisms, it is now not moved, so I'm sure there are sulfure batches inside, which are lowering NO3, but if disturbed, it would most probably kill everything in my tank lol

 

[TheFishMan65]

Wait! I thought we did not want sediment falling on the DSB.

Brian, i will probably add one as well, but you might want to consider doing it in a bucket. Then if you don't like it, it doesn't work, or it goes bad it is easier to replace.

 

[S.A. Trev]

in my Fuge, I have 6" of DSB and cheato on top with 2 T5HO lights on it. lit 24/7

that being said, the cheato on top of DSB isnt that good I find :S
it will trap detritus in it, and will attract most of the life forms from the DSB to it. so they will eventually all leave the DSB and live in the cheato since that's where the food is

In my set up, I havent ran into Issues, although, I think the cheato has changed the operation of my DSB under it ! instead of being full of organisms, it is now not moved, so I'm sure there are sulfure batches inside, which are lowering NO3, but if disturbed, it would most probably kill everything in my tank lol

Interesting observation and I must agree the cheato is like a castle for the orgs.........hey does the FBI know about that tikking time bomb you have there:spin1:

 

[S.A. Trev]

Wait! I thought we did not want sediment falling on the DSB.

Brian, i will probably add one as well, but you might want to consider doing it in a bucket. Then if you don't like it, it doesn't work, or it goes bad it is easier to replace.

LOL dude yeah we dont want it but it does happen there is no dsb that has 0 sediment settlement they all have just the better ones have less, the cheato is like glue and the sediment sticks to it rem the part of the cheato that the sediment sticks to is suspended in the open water

 

[Allmost]

Interesting observation and I must agree the cheato is like a castle for the orgs.........hey does the FBI know about that tikking time bomb you have there:spin1:

yea the life in the cheato is just amazing, which is making me feel like it has taken the organisms out of the DSB.

the sulfur thing, I really hope its just in my head ! but a DSB, with no movement is bound to develop sulfur and hydrogen sulfur over time, no ? please say no lol hahaha

I have started Zeo about a month and a half ago, will wait another month and a half, and I think after I will remove the DSB and cheato from the fuge and make my Fuge a frag tank .

 

[Allmost]

LOL dude yeah we dont want it but it does happen there is no dsb that has 0 sediment settlement they all have just the better ones have less, the cheato is like glue and the sediment sticks to it rem the part of the cheato that the sediment sticks to is suspended in the open water

think about it though. some remove the detritus with mechanical filter, I feel like my tank with no mechanical filter except skimmer is same clearity.,

but the onews with mechanical filter have to clean it daily or it will become a nitrate factory, not in DSB form, so its a win win IMO

 

[S.A. Trev]

yea the life in the cheato is just amazing, which is making me feel like it has taken the organisms out of the DSB.

the sulfur thing, I really hope its just in my head ! but a DSB, with no movement is bound to develop sulfur and hydrogen sulfur over time, no ? please say no lol hahaha

I have started Zeo about a month and a half ago, will wait another month and a half, and I think after I will remove the DSB and cheato from the fuge and make my Fuge a frag tank .

Yeah you right but I dont think you need to panic I was only joking, should mostly be pods in the cheato and the rest should stay in the sand ( I find the bigger pods take the cheato and the smallerones are relegated to the sand until they move up the food chain ) so I would bet that there is still plenty of movement inside you bed so I wouldnt stress

 

[S.A. Trev]

think about it though. some remove the detritus with mechanical filter, I feel like my tank with no mechanical filter except skimmer is same clearity.,

but the onews with mechanical filter have to clean it daily or it will become a nitrate factory, not in DSB form, so its a win win IMO

Right on

 

[crazylegs]

Bio-load- It looks like you have a denitrification filter based on the same principles as the coil denitrator from your diagram. Allmost is right in that this isn't the best replica of a DSB to use as a research model. Even if he doesn't know what the word "fluidized" means!:lmao:

I would suggest getting away from DSB's while you still can. Most people that use DSB's can't even tell you why they work! Advection this, infauna that! DSB's are like VooDoo, nobody knows if they really work or not, but the mystery keeps us trying. Besides, why go through all the hassel of restocking micro fauna and changing the top quarter of your substrate every six months if you don't have to?

There are solid, proven methods for nitrate reduction. Even if you have to pull out the old Plenum system. Or better yet, experiment with vodka dosing. You stand a much better chance of successfully battling nitrates, and being happier with your tank this way.

To all those using DSB's,:wavehand:

 

[Allmost]

Bio-load- It looks like you have a denitrification filter based on the same principles as the coil denitrator from your diagram. Allmost is right in that this isn't the best replica of a DSB to use as a research model. Even if he doesn't know what the word "fluidized" means!:lmao:

lol okay now this I can agree to lol, my English isn't the best lol


but this :
"I would suggest getting away from DSB's while you still can. Most people that use DSB's can't even tell you why they work! Advection this, infauna that! DSB's are like VooDoo, nobody knows if they really work or not, but the mystery keeps us trying. Besides, why go through all the hassel of restocking micro fauna and changing the top quarter of your substrate every six months if you don't have to?"

there is no question if it works or not, cause I see it working and I see it working for every single tank I have put one on. the question here is, HOW does it work, which seperates us into different groups of thoughts. if you look above, we discussed 3 different forms of it working in all method it works, but we dont know how EXACTLY more research and we will get that done too.

 

[crazylegs]

Allmost- I didn't know English wasn't your mother tongue. Please don't take anything I posted too seriously. I hope I didn't offend you.