fluval 305 question

[sanababit]

hello out there

i have a fluval 305 canister filter that comes with carbon and little ceramic cylinders, anyways, the guy at the lfs told me to take the pads out off hte filter and exchange the ceramic beads with little pieces of live rock, he says that it will make a better filter, what do you guys think???

i asked him why, and said that the bead are good nitrate producers???

sana

 

[Crimthann]

I'd agree with him for the same reason as to why many people take out bio-balls.

 

[supertech3]

I, as many others do not care for these filters because they tend to accumulate debris which causes notrate levels to rise. the best way to use them if at all is with pads to trap floating debris but this will also cause you to clean out the pads on a regular basis. Your other use would be to have the bags of charcoal in there. I had one on my system for about a year and ditched it to reduce nitrate levels.

 

[Azial]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9789873#post9789873 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by supertech3
I, as many others do not care for these filters because they tend to accumulate debris which causes notrate levels to rise. the best way to use them if at all is with pads to trap floating debris but this will also cause you to clean out the pads on a regular basis. Your other use would be to have the bags of charcoal in there. I had one on my system for about a year and ditched it to reduce nitrate levels.

I see this over and over and over again. The problem is I can't see how it's true. Many filtration systems have dead areas that can get debris and are hallowed as "nitrate free". I think I may test this with identical 29 gallon tanks with and without a canister filter.

And in regards to live rock vs a porous ceramic in a canister I would love to see tests to see the difference given a 6 month time frame.

I do however understand the bio-balls wet/dry issue that some sumps use and the differences in bacteria. This is an enclosed system I don't see how given that neither receive light how they would perform differently given the same main system.

Ditch the sponges, use it as a phosphate/nitrate resin remover. It can also be used effectively in their original capacity with sponges, rings, carbon if they are maintained properly and promptly.


I SWEAR I am going to debunk this, the math just doesn't add up.

 

[sanababit]

i see your point, i was just wondering if there was any difference, anyways im still going to put live rock in there, it wont hurt anything i believe, since this is my first tank im trying to soak as much info i can, but everybody is different and have different ways of doing things, and i believe theres no universal thing u can do that will work for everybody, thanks for your help

sana

 

[papagimp]

okay, I"ll explain this a little differently, it's not the ceramic rings, or anyother biomedia that is "producing" nitrates at all. It's strickly the type of beneficial bacteria on them. Light has nothing to do with it. It's all about the oxygen reaching the bacteria. In areas of high oxygen saturated water, such as what you'll get with a wet/dry filter, bioballs, biowheels, and even the canister filter with rubble rock or ceramic rings, the bacteria on them is getting loads of oxygen, this type of bacteria will convert ammonia into nitrite and on to nitrate, but will not eat up the nitrate. YOu need an anerobic zone with that type of bacteria to actually convert the nitrate to the nitrogenous gases that escape our systems thorugh surface agitation. You get this from DSB, and even in rock with bacteria colonized deep within the rock.
The reason people suggest ditching the songes is that they do not keep them clean enough and bacteria will colonize on them, same bacteria that colonizes on other forms of media, like the bioballs and whanot. Same high oxygen type of area. There fore, they won't do nothing for nitrate. Nitrae must be removed naturally, or with water changes, it's not going to go down on it's own without either of these things happening. If you removed all sponges/prefilters/and anything else that may gunk up, you'll still end up with higher nitrates if youre water changes are not bringing them down, or if there is no natural nitrate reduction going on. The accululation of debris can definalty help to add to nitrates, but if there is no bacteria converting the nitrates, than it's still there, regardless of wheather it came from a gunked up filter or just from normal nitrogen cycle taking place. The math doesn't have to add up, the science adds up just fine.

 

[Azial]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9793173#post9793173 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by papagimp
okay, I"ll explain this a little differently, it's not the ceramic rings, or anyother biomedia that is "producing" nitrates at all. It's strickly the type of beneficial bacteria on them. Light has nothing to do with it. It's all about the oxygen reaching the bacteria. In areas of high oxygen saturated water, such as what you'll get with a wet/dry filter, bioballs, biowheels, and even the canister filter with rubble rock or ceramic rings, the bacteria on them is getting loads of oxygen, this type of bacteria will convert ammonia into nitrite and on to nitrate, but will not eat up the nitrate. YOu need an anerobic zone with that type of bacteria to actually convert the nitrate to the nitrogenous gases that escape our systems thorugh surface agitation. You get this from DSB, and even in rock with bacteria colonized deep within the rock.
The reason people suggest ditching the songes is that they do not keep them clean enough and bacteria will colonize on them, same bacteria that colonizes on other forms of media, like the bioballs and whanot. Same high oxygen type of area. There fore, they won't do nothing for nitrate. Nitrae must be removed naturally, or with water changes, it's not going to go down on it's own without either of these things happening. If you removed all sponges/prefilters/and anything else that may gunk up, you'll still end up with higher nitrates if youre water changes are not bringing them down, or if there is no natural nitrate reduction going on. The accululation of debris can definalty help to add to nitrates, but if there is no bacteria converting the nitrates, than it's still there, regardless of wheather it came from a gunked up filter or just from normal nitrogen cycle taking place. The math doesn't have to add up, the science adds up just fine.

The problem is, the your speaking about a high oxygenated water going through canister filters. This simply isn't a fact. Normally most Canister filters pull from well below the water line, feed it directly into the top of the filter down to the bottom and through the filter media. There is little to no oxygenation happening here. In fact, it can be a very large negative since if only using a canister filter can lead to oxy dep in the night cycle since there isn't anything bringing and mixing oxygen within the filter and needs to be done via another method such as a power head pointed at the surface.

This is exactly the same environment that anaerobic bacteria that you quote in live rock thrives. And debris will add up in any filter, only in a refugium situation can this properly be handled. Live rock is not the only method for anerobic bacteria that finishes the nitrogen cycle to persist. I still stand by my statement, in a properly run canister, which is maintained on a monthly basis it will not hurt you in any way but will compliment live rock with water polishing nicely.

What it looks like you are quoting is aerobic bacteria, which I agree is undesirable in a Reef system and is commonly created in a bio-wheel, bio balls, and wet dry systems. However only a portion of canister have this as a feature or as a design flaw.

Original Poster: Find out for yourself, test it. I doubt you will be unhappy using this filter, but for heaven's sake, clean the filter regularly or Papagimp's statement WILL come to fact.

 

[Azial]

I would like to add Papagimp, that I don't doubt what you say, however after searching I can't find pure evidence of this. I meant no disrespect, but having seen them used effectively with no nitrate hearing this over and over makes me think something else is involved with this perception.

 

[sanababit]

hey guys, please dont get mad, and the truth is i'm more confused than ever, you are getting to technical, what im going to do i s change ceramic rings for live rock and do maintainance to the canister filter more often, clean it out and change carbon, i will leave sponges in for now and see what happens. thanks

i will be searching for more info on this and someday i will understand it just like you guys.

sana

 

[drummereef]

I think papagimp explained it quite well. I agree bio media is not as effective at breaking down nitrites as live rock. Here's a quote from the Reef Central FAQ...

"Why are bio balls bad?"

Bio balls are exceptionally good at converting ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate, but their effectiveness stops there. If they are your main source of filtration, nitrates will probably accumulate in your tank, causing algae growth and other problems, like reduced stony coral growth, and eventually (if they get high enough) stress in marine fish. If you have bio balls in your system now, your best option is to slowly remove them over a period of a few weeks in order to give the rest of your system a chance to develop natural mechanisms of nutrient export. Do NOT remove them all at once!

You can also research the pages upon pages on Wet Web Media and see the review that bio media get in regards to the breakdown of nitrate, if you don't believe us. Short version... Bio media = bad, Live rock = good

:thumbsup: