For the Ich "experts"...

[Jorgens]

I thought I would attach an atricle that has me thinking about handling tanks with Ich.
I had a reef tank for 4 years in which I knew I had Ich. Feeding a regular homemade mush with garlic and vitamines, My hippo tang recoverd and life was grand in the system untill I thought I'd try my had at a fresh water planted. That was a nightmare so back to the reef we go, however....

Fighting Ich this round seems to be a loosing battle. All tank parameters are normal
79 F
10dkh
8.4ph
Ca400
Pos .025
TrAtes 0

I have lost 3 tangs now to this dang parasite still feeding my home made mush with garlic and vitamins.

i read the stories about QT tanks and don't have a system without them. But I've NEVER had one beffore. not to say that's right, wrong or indifferent. I just haven't and have had great sucess at growing a reef. The article I want to attach goes into the debate about the cycts going dormant. Which makes sense to me and why I don't belileve a QT and fallow DT will rid the system of the parasite.
http://aquaweb.pair.com/forums/archives/loach4/index.cgi?read=58392

But I am on here posting because I seem to have a "super bug" version of this parasite in that my tangs are all headed south almost as soon as they are introduced. My one and only Kole who has been healthy as a horse the last 3 months has the parasite all over him last night. I am considering putting up a QT and treating ALL fish and allowing the DT to stay empty @ 82 for 12 weeks.

But the thought that it would not completely rid my system makes me cringe at the expense of seting up another QT system.

I have seen the debates back and forth on this damn parasite, and honestly do not know which is a better approach. again I have had success for 4 years with Ich in system and only the initial outbreak.

Would love any input as this bout the second time seems to be brutal and I'm sick that my tangs are gone. I don't want any more casualties nor to add any others untill somehting is resolved.... frustrated!!!!

 

[Stuart60611]

This artcile has absolutely no applicability to marine systems. People often misuse the term "ich" in the saltwater context. Ich is a frsshwater parasite, while crypt is a marine parasite. Although these parasites are related, the are entirely different species and involve entirely different treatments and have very different tolerances. For example, heat can be used to kill ich while it cannot be used to kill crypt. There is no evidence whatsoever that crypt goes dormant for long periods of time. There is, however, some evidence that extremely low temparatures (temperatures usually so low that they will kill most fish and corals) can extend the lifecycle by weeks (not months). The crypt parasite must go through its lifecycle and cannot stay in cyst form in perpetuity. The time period, however, for cysts to hatch can vary based on temperature. Moreover, crypt requires fish to complete its lifecycle. Without fish, the parasite will not be able to complete its lifecycle and eventually die. This has been proven conclusively pursuant to many actual scientific studies which clearly your link is not.

The fact that your tangs go "south" as soon as they are introduced is not indicative that you have any "super bug" version of the parasite and is a very common occurence with tangs. Tangs lack much of a slime coat. As such, when tangs are first introduced to a crypt infested system the parasites are able to take hold aggressively on tangs b/c they have no slime coat to penetrate, and the tangs do not cope well because they are under extreme stress caused by acclimating to a new system. Many people experience this. I have lost a kole tang exactly the same way where I introduced the kole tang to a system with crypt, and the tang died within several days thereafter.

 

[Orcrone]

Stuart - A very good response. I couldn't have said it better.

I've heard the argument before that I've never had a QT and everything's been fine. To me it's not a matter of 'if' but 'when'. It's analogous to someone saying I've gone drinking and always manage to drive home OK. Eventually something bad is going to happen. I currently have a blue hippo in a QT. Yesterday's been 3 weeks and he's still looking great. It is very tempting to put him in the DT, but I want to give him some more time to make sure there's no crypt present.

 

[Jorgens]

Interesting...
So I could call my last reef "lucky" and this time it seems more "normal" for the parasite. So if the marine version ( I use the term Ich loosly) does not have a dormant stage, than i can see where the QT is a must. I understand the tangs and slime coats and bing more likley to become infected, however I had 3 tangs in the last system as well with only the initial outbreak on te hippo.

Some a quick question on QT's how large does one normally keep on hand? and does it run full time? Bio system? heavy waterchanges to avoid amonia and trItes? I guess we'll need to set one up and rid the system....

Any other input is appreciated!!!

Thanks gang

 

[Stuart60611]

Interesting...
So I could call my last reef "lucky" and this time it seems more "normal" for the parasite. So if the marine version ( I use the term Ich loosly) does not have a dormant stage, than i can see where the QT is a must. I understand the tangs and slime coats and bing more likley to become infected, however I had 3 tangs in the last system as well with only the initial outbreak on te hippo.

Some a quick question on QT's how large does one normally keep on hand? and does it run full time? Bio system? heavy waterchanges to avoid amonia and trItes? I guess we'll need to set one up and rid the system....

Any other input is appreciated!!!

Thanks gang

Fish both as individuals and generally as particular species can cope with the crypt parasite to varying degrees. In your prior experiences, your fish were still infected, but they may have been able to cope with the parasite better than the tang you recently lost.

Quarantine tanks do not need to be expensive, nor elaborate and can be easily broken down quicly for storage when not in use. Quarantine tanks should be as large as you can manage to help maintain water quality and also reduce fish stress.

For example, you could purchase a cheap plastic tub from Wallmart for your quarantine/hosptital tank and a cheap sponge filter and a few powerheads, and you have yourself a quarantine tank. Total cost well under $100.00. You place the sponge in your display to populate it with bacteria. Also, using display tank water to fill the quarantine tank can greatly help to quickly cycle the quarantine tank. When not in use, the plastic tub and such can be easily stored out of the way. A popular approach is to always have a sponge in the sump so that one can quickly set up the tub quarantine whenever needed with a mature biological filter.

 

[Jorgens]

well the Kole tang didn't even pull thru the night. From fat and healthy to dead in 18hours. Unreal. I will be setting up a QT for the clowns and blennies. I have one VERY upset 8 year old boy who lost his fish. I too am devestated at loosing 4 tangs total. I appreciate all your input gang. Thanks!

 

[Stuart60611]

well the Kole tang didn't even pull thru the night. From fat and healthy to dead in 18hours. Unreal. I will be setting up a QT for the clowns and blennies. I have one VERY upset 8 year old boy who lost his fish. I too am devestated at loosing 4 tangs total. I appreciate all your input gang. Thanks!

Sorry to hear about your losses. But to save you and your son any further heartache, you need to first deal with riding your display and all fish in the display of crypt before you add any new fish. Otherwise, even if you quarantine new fish additions, the new fish additions will be infected and could die as a result.

 

[Jorgens]

We're off to the pet store now to get a better QT system. Upon further investigation, we have velvet along WITH Ich. Which explains why they are heading south so quickly compared to just ich. All fishes are coming out, we're getting the QT and will go with copper as that treats both. All fish will have to pass through a QT before getting back in my DT as it's a pain catching tangs and such in a 180 with 250#s of LR.

 

[Stuart60611]

We're off to the pet store now to get a better QT system. Upon further investigation, we have velvet along WITH Ich. Which explains why they are heading south so quickly compared to just ich. All fishes are coming out, we're getting the QT and will go with copper as that treats both. All fish will have to pass through a QT before getting back in my DT as it's a pain catching tangs and such in a 180 with 250#s of LR.

Good. Remember, you will need to keep your display fishless for 8-10 weeks so get a quarantine system where you can keep your fish for this lengthy period. Your copper treatment will conclude in about 1 month, but your fish will remain in quarantine for quite a bit longer.

 

[Orcrone]

Jorgens. Sorry about the loss of the fish. I know how devastating that is. And I also apologize for coming across as insensitive yesterday. It wasn't directed at you in particular. I was guilty myself. You were asking about people's QT. I had a 55 DT and purchased a used 125 gallon setup. The setup was not well done (no water changes, just evaporation and topoff; no protein skimmer) so I purchased someone else's problems. Then I threw in a few new fish at once (dumb I know). Two days later we had a blackout and lost power for twelve hours. Woke up to white spots all over several fish. The only good thing about the situation was that my 55 gallon could be turned into a hospital tank.

Keep a close eye on your ammonia and nitrites. I wound up doing 40 - 45 gallon water changes to keep them in check. So keep a lot of premixed saltwater ready and best of luck to you.

 

[MrTuskfish]

A QT/HT does not have to be expensive at all. Start with Craig's list. Tank, heater, some PVC pieces for shelter, no LR or substrate, and water from your DT. (The next time you do a water change). Get a HOB filter (I like Aqua-Clear, they last forever and have a huge sponge. Keep a sponge somewhere in the flow of your DT system. When you need to use the QT, just put the sponge into the HOB filter. The QT will be cycled and shouldn't need any water changes during the QT period. Toss out the sponge when done and keep a new one in your DT--they're cheap. Avoid HOB filters that have "all in one" cartridges, you don't wan't the carbon---especially if you use meds. I treat all new fish with copper and a de-wormer in QT. That may be controversial, but works very well for me. I keep LOTS of fish and have not seen a parasite in any of my DTs in years.